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 Post subject: Tweaks for Corruptor
PostPosted: Tue Jul 17, 2018 12:57 pm 
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Wayist

Joined: Thu Jul 12, 2018 1:43 am
Posts: 16
There's no reason to use Corruptor when Reaver is simply a better choice. The only redeeming qualities of Corruptor are quick access to hexes and Blight tree. Here are few ideas:

1. Torment isn't locked. Having the tree locked on a class that heavily uses vim doesn't make sense to me.

2. Rework Darkfire and Flame of Urh'rok to make Shadowflame tree more appealing for Corruptor and AoU classes. No one's going to use the tree when Darkfire is more dangerous the more you invest points in it and Flame of Urh'rok sustain cost is insane and only usable in Fearscape. Take a look at Starkeep's rework to Shadowflame, it's neat.

3. To balance the amount of locked trees to Reaver's, add an exclusive locked high level tree that has acid dealers to synergise with Corrosive Worm. It's weird that Corruptor doesn't have a single high level tree and talent that deals acid to make use of Corrosive Worm acid res reduction.


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 Post subject: Re: Tweaks for Corruptor
PostPosted: Tue Jul 17, 2018 6:01 pm 
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Thalore

Joined: Sat Apr 29, 2017 9:39 pm
Posts: 158
I firmly disagree that Corruptor is strictly worse then Reaver.

1: Bone Shield is the primary defense of both classes and it defends best agains large single damage instances. Since most weapon attacks have several low-damage procs attached, Bone Shield is notably worse agains melee hits, meaning that the ranged Corruptor gets more benefit out of it then the melee Reaver.

2: Darkfire is probably one of the most useless talents ever, sure, but you definitely underestimate the rest of the Shadowflame tree.
a: Wraithform is a pretty good escape on a class otherwise strapped for mobility
b: Flame of Urh'Rok is expensive, but gives a decent chunk of otherwise rare global speed. Plus having it sustained enables...
c: Fearscape is a really good, if expensive, escape. The main expense is that you need Flame or Urh'Rok sustained or it'll murder your Bone Shield.

3: Torment is not by any stretch of the imagination a good category. Overkill is an OK ability, but that's only because it's bugged. Corruptor is far better at abusing the bug anyways since it gets a lot more +blight damage. Heck, the bug might even have been fixed in the latest version.

4: I was about to point out all the other advantages of Corruptor over Reaver, only to find that you'd already listed them and then dismissed them out of hand. I'm just going to say that unlocked Hexes and the Blight tree are both very strong.

5: A more illuminating question is asking what advantages Reaver has over Corruptor. They have decent melee damage and start with Bone unlocked. That's literally it. Decent melee damage is nothing to sneeze at, but Corruptor has really really high spell damage, so the scaling gap isn't nearly as big as usual. If you do the meme thing and dual-wield shortstaves then you give up Reaver's big advantage in favour of being a strictly worse Corruptor. Corruptor's Shortstaff + Life Drinker isn't that much worse then Reaver's double Shortstaves, especially since Reaver lacks the huge crit multi and blight damage reduction potential of Corruptor. And starting with Bone unlocked doesn't do much since they both get Bone Shield online at the exact same time anyways.

As for your proposed changes, only the first one sort of makes sense. And Corruptor IS getting Torment unlocked in 1.6, but that doesn't mean much since the Overkill bug is definitely going to be fixed by then.

Making Darkfire less awful is reasonable, but isn't a high priority when the rest of the tree is so good.

And there's no reason why Corruptor and Reaver should have the same number of locked categories. Even if there was one, they already have the same number of categories that they actually want to unlock. Corruptor wants Bone and Shadowflame and Reaver wants Rot and Hexes.


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 Post subject: Re: Tweaks for Corruptor
PostPosted: Wed Jul 18, 2018 1:47 am 
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Wayist

Joined: Thu Jul 12, 2018 1:43 am
Posts: 16
1. Boneshield is a must have at level 10 or directly if cornac, and I agree that as a ranged class, Corruptor benefits more from the tree than Reaver, but against a rushing/ambushing enemy? Corruptor has to escape fast or screwed.

2. Wraithform is great, especially with movement infusion, couldn't agree more. Flame of Urh'rok is nice, but the cost is what keeps me from using it. Without Torment, Fearscape will last only for a few turns before the vim got depleted. Not to mention that boneshield eats quite a bit of vim, 140 vim for both? Eww. Torment lowers the cost, sure, but we have to wait till lv 36 or 20 if cornac. A lot of investment for something that doesn't really worth much.

3. Torment is.. ifyy, surely, but it's good in a prolonged and group fight. Fearscape benefits too from the tree. It's a great news that the tree being unlocked at 1.6.

4-5. Reaver doesn't have to fear of being outpaced in damage against an NPC in melee, just rend them with melee talents and the nice automatic melee per spell thing. Corruptor doesn't get the same luxury and has to kite enemies. I'm not saying that Corruptor should be able to tackle enemies in melee, it's just weird that another class get same trees, not locked and being better in handling enemies.

Blight is great, very great. It's the defining tree of Corruptor, but the crit mult in Dark Ritual can be imitated by Reaver in randart though. The crit mult in randart applies to melee attack too, something that Reaver usually do. I don't really agree that hex shines in Corruptor as Reaver can get hex at 10 because Rot is kinda meh. Enemies are more dangerous past 10.

I don't shortstaff a Reaver :P , mainly because there are a lot of better fixedarts in regular weapons (wooosh?). Lifedrinker ease Corruptor's life, sure, only if we can find/vault it. The shortstaves are meh, Fearstar is better, only if I can find it :cry:

Well, Corruptor isn't really bad. It's great actually. Maybe I'm just irritated that it mostly just deals damage without the flexibility Reaver has.

Edit: grammar related stuff


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 Post subject: Re: Tweaks for Corruptor
PostPosted: Wed Jul 18, 2018 5:36 am 
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Perspiring Physicist

Joined: Sun Sep 09, 2012 7:43 am
Posts: 5759
Fearstar? :P
Well that one is super rare since its one of my T5 addon artifacts, and I've made them all have higher rarity than vanilla ones so people don't complain that they keep getting my weird ones instead of the 'good' normal artifacts. And this one is certainly one of the weirder ones.

More on topic: Corruptor is a bit more restricted than Reaver, as in a lot of ways Reaver is Corruptor with pretty good melee offense.
I think both classes are rather lacking in defence options, and Corruptor tends to feel railroaded into using the same talents each game.

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 Post subject: Re: Tweaks for Corruptor
PostPosted: Wed Jul 18, 2018 6:03 am 
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Wayist

Joined: Thu Jul 12, 2018 1:43 am
Posts: 16
HousePet wrote:
Fearstar? :P
Well that one is super rare since its one of my T5 addon artifacts, and I've made them all have higher rarity than vanilla ones so people don't complain that they keep getting my weird ones instead of the 'good' normal artifacts. And this one is certainly one of the weirder ones.


Oops, I thought the stuff belongs to AoU. My bad :lol:


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 Post subject: Re: Tweaks for Corruptor
PostPosted: Wed Jul 18, 2018 8:14 am 
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Uruivellas

Joined: Tue May 14, 2013 3:45 pm
Posts: 832
Bone and Blood are both getting buffed in a future patch.


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 Post subject: Re: Tweaks for Corruptor
PostPosted: Wed Jul 18, 2018 8:22 am 
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Wayist

Joined: Thu Jul 12, 2018 1:43 am
Posts: 16
Razakai wrote:
Bone and Blood are both getting buffed in a future patch.


Great news!


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 Post subject: Re: Tweaks for Corruptor
PostPosted: Wed Jul 18, 2018 5:41 pm 
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Uruivellas

Joined: Fri Oct 10, 2014 4:00 pm
Posts: 872
I agree with HousePet that both class are lacking in defensive tools. They have Bone Shield and...that's basically it. Some mobility or other tools would go a long way.

On another note, I find many of the vim talent costs (especially sustains) to be overpriced, given that Reaver and Corruptor don't have the greatest vim recovery tools. I think their vim recovery should be improved, or these costs should be reduced. Improving the recovery tools is probably the better option, so Mana Clash isn't as devastating.


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 Post subject: Re: Tweaks for Corruptor
PostPosted: Wed Jul 18, 2018 7:03 pm 
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Thalore

Joined: Sat Apr 29, 2017 9:39 pm
Posts: 158
To be fair, Bone Shield is supposedly a really good defensive tool, but it's also incredibly finnicky. Get hit in melee without a shielding rune up or get some diseases or bleeds on you and the shield evaporates super quick. Hopefully the 1.6 changes will make it both less powerful and less annoying.


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 Post subject: Re: Tweaks for Corruptor
PostPosted: Wed Jul 18, 2018 11:39 pm 
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Thalore

Joined: Tue Jan 03, 2017 7:12 pm
Posts: 174
I haven't tested 1.6 in a while, but last time I looked, the only change to Bone Shield (that I remember) is that it now has a damage threshold, so that hits below a certain magnitude (bleeds, for example) won't burn a shield.

That just in and of itself is a giant buff to it.

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 Post subject: Re: Tweaks for Corruptor
PostPosted: Thu Jul 19, 2018 7:55 am 
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Uruivellas

Joined: Tue May 14, 2013 3:45 pm
Posts: 832
https://git.net-core.org/tome/t-engine4/merge_requests/482

That's the planned MR for Defilers.


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 Post subject: Re: Tweaks for Corruptor
PostPosted: Thu Jul 19, 2018 8:47 am 
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Perspiring Physicist

Joined: Sun Sep 09, 2012 7:43 am
Posts: 5759
Hrm, that is going to stop Bone being useful for Witherer...

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 Post subject: Re: Tweaks for Corruptor
PostPosted: Thu Jul 19, 2018 9:08 am 
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Wayist

Joined: Thu Jul 12, 2018 1:43 am
Posts: 16
Razakai wrote:


Love these changes :D


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 Post subject: Re: Tweaks for Corruptor
PostPosted: Fri Jul 20, 2018 11:32 am 
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Spiderkin

Joined: Sun Dec 22, 2013 2:22 pm
Posts: 509
Quote:
The only redeeming qualities of Corruptor are quick access to hexes and Blight tree.
Code:
Blight is great, very great. It's the defining tree of Corruptor, but the crit mult in Dark Ritual can be imitated by Reaver in randart though

Finding a shortstaff that gives as much crit multi as DR at high SP is REALLY rare. And even if you find ONE, you can still use it as a corruptor :galaxy brain: Also AoE sustain removal, no biggie right. And how is blood fury not even mentioned here? Also the high crit multi and crit you have combines really well with the light tree which can give you pretty huge survivability boosts even after the BiL nerf.

Quote:
No one's going to use the tree when Darkfire is more dangerous the more you invest points in it and Flame of Urh'rok sustain cost is insane and only usable in Fearscape.

Only usable in fearscape??? If someone does not pick shadowflame it's mainly because currently it costs a cat point.

Quote:
Torment lowers the cost, sure, but we have to wait till lv 36 or 20 if cornac.

Yes, you can't always activate all the sustains when you'd be able to get them levelwise. This is not exclusive to corruptors nor is there anything wrong it. Assuming you have to have all your sustains up by level 36/20 or apparently even sooner because even lvl 20 seems to be too late for you makes no sense.

Quote:
Corruptor doesn't get the same luxury and has to kite enemies.


Are you aware that AAD shenanigans put aside, corruptor has the best ranged burst damage output of all ranged spellcasters?

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 Post subject: Re: Tweaks for Corruptor
PostPosted: Mon Jul 23, 2018 12:39 pm 
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Wayist

Joined: Thu Jul 12, 2018 1:43 am
Posts: 16
1. Corrupted Negation checks spellsave, which is a bit of downer for me. And welp, forget to mention Blood tree. My apologies. It's a neat tree for disease stacking and AoE control. Blood Fury on the other hand.. idk, I can't sustain another if i use bone shield+urh'rok(Starkeep's one)+DR+Overkill-Willful Tormenter. Another reason why I usually ignore it is because crit happens quite often in Cun 2nd Corruptor. The damage increase is great when combined with Corrosive Worm though.

Shortstaves with high SP and SCrit are rare, I agree (screw you, random Telos drop), heck, shortstaves themselves are rare, that's why I said that they are meh. It's better, I think, to combine Lifedrinker (if found or vaulted) with another dagger that has blight modifier, or Shantiz, if lucky. The loss of Channel Staff and possibility of proccing blood grasp per channel is a deep loss, though. I'm kinda in dilemma..

2. Wraithform is exceptional when combined with movement infusion, especially in a place like pride/high peak. More escape options is always good. But yeah, the rest of the tree makes unlocking the tree a questionable move. I mentioned a rework addon because it makes the tree quite worthwhile for a cat point.

3. I often play on Insane. Lv 36 for most races is bit late, I think. The merge request for Torment is one of I anticipate the most, as it'll solve Corruptor's building problem. With that, the goodness of Light will be easier to obtain, too.

4. Yes, but the bursts last only some turns before the need to Dark Portal arise, the only mean for them to escape, if Shadowflame is ignored.


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