ToME: the Tales of Maj'Eyal

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PostPosted: Sat Jun 16, 2018 1:27 pm 
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Archmage

Joined: Mon Mar 28, 2011 12:42 pm
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Reasons:

A - it doesn’t do anything.

B - Given how the new Zigur entry requirements work Drem currently have no way to enter Zigur. Given that Drem don’t inherently have spell abilities besides the Kroshkkur port and would make excellent Oozemancers, its a bit of a bummer that a Drem who lets a city of spellcasters get destroyed without lifting a finger still can’t enter Zigur.

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PostPosted: Sat Jun 16, 2018 6:07 pm 
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Wyrmic

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Technically keeping the teleport around is detrimental too.

Say you were hit by an effect that puts it on cooldown, and activate an effect that takes spells off of cooldown. This teleport would be effected the same way, wouldn't it?


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PostPosted: Sun Jun 17, 2018 12:46 am 
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Archmage

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Ok, that’s a thing it does. In your example it served as a form of ablative spell-armor in the first place in that case - if they put 3 of your talents on cooldown and hit a talent that does nothing, they got 2 “real” talents. If your “take spells off cooldown” effect hits it, you’re really only coming out even.

I’d still rather not have it so that Drem can play antimagic.

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Last edited by Snarvid on Sun Jun 17, 2018 1:40 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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PostPosted: Sun Jun 17, 2018 11:06 am 
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Archmage

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Snarvid wrote:
I’d still rather not have it so that Drem can play antimagic.
Why not? Lore-wise, they are closest to "powered by unknown forces", like the pre-DLC drem in Deep Bellow deriving from Amakthel corruption.


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PostPosted: Sun Jun 17, 2018 11:35 am 
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Archmage

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Clarity check - the “it” in the quoted sentence refers to their having a (mostly) useless spell. Said spell’s rare utility as ablative armor for talents that do something is, to me, less valuable than the ability for Drem to learn antimagic. Was I unclear, or were you thinking that “unknown forces” is something that Zigur would legit dislike?

While the Demented classes that begin in Kroshkkur are spell-users and thus don’t belong in Zigur, Drem don’t have spell abilities on their racial tree but their starting location forces them to have one in order to return to it, which keeps unable to enter Zigur even if they’re an Oozemancer already and could not successfully cast it. Even without the infinite turns trick I think Drem would be great Oozemancers, Solipsists, and Psyshots, all of whom would benefit from Zigur access.

e: added Solipsists to list of AM-compatible classes Drem would be rad at.

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Last edited by Snarvid on Sun Jun 17, 2018 11:45 am, edited 2 times in total.

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PostPosted: Sun Jun 17, 2018 11:41 am 
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Archmage

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Snarvid wrote:
Clarity check - the “it” in the quoted sentence refers to their having a (mostly) useless spell. Said spell’s rare utility as ablative armor for talents that do something is, to me, less valuable than the ability for Drem to learn antimagic. Was I unclear, or were you thinking that “unknown forces” is something that Zigur would legit dislike?

While the Demented classes that begin in Kroshkkur are spell-users and thus don’t belong in Zigur, Drem don’t have spell abilities on their racial tree but their starting location forces them to have one in order to return to it, which keeps unable to enter Zigur even if they’re an Oozemancer already and could not successfully cast it. Even without the infinite turns trick I think Drem would be great Oozemancers and Psyshots, both of whom would benefit from Zigur access.
I misparsed your sentence. I thought you meant "I'd rather not have the game be such that Drem can use antimagic". I agree with your actual statement.

Perhaps the "Teleport X" spells should be item effects instead. You could even put them on the Orb of Scrying, which is currently only a legacy item.


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PostPosted: Sun Jun 17, 2018 12:08 pm 
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Uruivellas

Joined: Fri Oct 10, 2014 4:00 pm
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I agree with this suggestion.

On another note, I think the Zigur check should be modified to allow in characters that are antimagic or don't know any spells. It's irrelevant if an antimagic character knows spells since they can't be used.


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PostPosted: Sun Jun 17, 2018 12:25 pm 
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Archmage

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Effigy wrote:
I agree with this suggestion.

On another note, I think the Zigur check should be modified to allow in characters that are antimagic or don't know any spells. It's irrelevant if spells since they can't be used.
Under what circumstances would this come up? When are antimagic characters barred from Zigur for knowing spells?


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PostPosted: Sun Jun 17, 2018 1:09 pm 
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Uruivellas

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It could come up from characters that existed before v1.5 since you could enter Zigur and go antimagic even if you knew spells. It just seems like a reasonable sanity check. If an antimagic character is barred from Zigur, something is wrong.


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PostPosted: Sun Jun 17, 2018 4:28 pm 
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Archmage

Joined: Wed Jan 22, 2014 1:46 pm
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Velorien wrote:
Under what circumstances would this come up? When are antimagic characters barred from Zigur for knowing spells?


This is precisely the point of this discussion, a drem oozemancer start antimagic but can't enter zigur and so can't get the free fungus unlock and antimagic mastery boost.

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PostPosted: Sun Jun 17, 2018 11:07 pm 
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Perspiring Physicist

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Well you could make a Shaloren Oozemancer and accidently bar yourself by putting a point in a racial.
You are also barred until you remove the starting rune.

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PostPosted: Sun Jun 17, 2018 11:37 pm 
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Uruivellas

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HousePet wrote:
Well you could make a Shaloren Oozemancer and accidently bar yourself by putting a point in a racial.
You are also barred until you remove the starting rune.


If you do either of these you could realize your mistake, reroll, and not do it again though, so I think you missed the point.

Those are both optional, where there is no option to skip or get rid of the teleport spell, which is the heart of the discussion, I believe.

I agree with the idea as well. No reason Drem should be forced out of Zigur. Heck, they take Ogres! (And don't even turn them all into Krogs ;P)


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PostPosted: Sun Jun 17, 2018 11:58 pm 
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Archmage

Joined: Mon Mar 28, 2011 12:42 pm
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Also, as a Drem Oozemancer, the Angolwen doorman is terrified of me, and I can betray escorts to Zigur, they just won't let *me* in. It's like I want to be an employee and all they're offering is independent contractor status.

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