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 Post subject: Re: T1 Rework
PostPosted: Wed Apr 18, 2018 2:12 pm 
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Halfling

Joined: Fri Jan 01, 2016 2:23 pm
Posts: 107
So the thread should be called "Insane rework" since the issue does not lie in T1s themselves but in the insane-specific difficulty curve making it mandatory to farm them every time.

And since Insane early game is getting substantial tweaks in 1.6 perhaps the problem that you bring up is already fixed?


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 Post subject: Re: T1 Rework
PostPosted: Wed Apr 18, 2018 3:39 pm 
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Higher

Joined: Sat May 09, 2015 6:56 pm
Posts: 52
This idea is horrifying to me, as a madness/roguelike player.

If you don't like the starting areas, don't do them. Nothing is forcing you to. Problem solved.


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 Post subject: Re: T1 Rework
PostPosted: Wed Apr 18, 2018 3:53 pm 
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Thalore

Joined: Sat Apr 29, 2017 9:39 pm
Posts: 148
I see some tension between.

Brcz wrote:
This idea is horrifying to me, as a madness/roguelike player.


And

Brcz wrote:
If you don't like the starting areas, don't do them. Nothing is forcing you to. Problem solved.


The first sentence implies that on higher difficulties, removing the T1 bloat would make your life more difficult. The second sentence states that there is no drawback to not doing the T1's. The drawback to not doing all the T1's, as you imply at the start, is that your character is weaker. Sometimes dramatically so, since many classes have important power spikes at level 10 or 12. This probably gets even worse in 1.6, because of the removal of drowning and getting T3 items from shops. With those ways to get good items quickly, you can definitely justify missing out on four artifacts and a couple levels in the interest of fun. Which brings me to my central point: Doing all of the T1's, even though it is boring, is still the most effective way to play. Rewarding tedium, especially in a roguelike game, is simply awful.


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 Post subject: Re: T1 Rework
PostPosted: Tue May 01, 2018 2:31 pm 
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Higher

Joined: Sat May 09, 2015 6:56 pm
Posts: 52
Maybe I'm just not picturing what you are suggesting properly, but if you get rid of most of the T1s isn't that the same as skipping them?

Is your suggestion actually to get rid of many of the T1s and make the T2s into T1s, difficulty-wise? If so, what does it accomplish? Why not just raise the difficulty level if they're not adequately challenging you?

At higher difficulties, I don't find the starting areas boring at all. I guess that comes hand-in-hand with the possibility of randbosses. On normal, I remember feeling like every area would kind of lull you into complacency, and the biggest threat was actually dying due to carelessness rather than tactical difficulty.


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 Post subject: Re: T1 Rework
PostPosted: Wed May 02, 2018 12:10 am 
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Perspiring Physicist

Joined: Sun Sep 09, 2012 7:43 am
Posts: 5747
I thought the general idea was to remove the gap between T1 and T2 dungeons, so that it isn't better to grind out loads of T1 zones to be ready for the T2s.
Exactly how this would be achieved was only brainstormed.

_________________
My feedback meter decays into coding. Give me feedback and I make mods.


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 Post subject: Re: T1 Rework
PostPosted: Mon Jun 04, 2018 11:40 am 
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Cornac

Joined: Sat Sep 27, 2014 11:33 am
Posts: 35
Location: Irkkk
Maybe we can make the alternative layout become the 'enhanced' setting for T1 dungeons?
So you will do 2* starting T1 dungeon -> choose 2 enhanced T1.5 version from 4 other races' starting dungon -> T2 dungeons
The enhanced T1.5 will have a target level between T1 and T2 dungeons, sometimes drop T2 equipments.


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 Post subject: Re: T1 Rework
PostPosted: Thu Jun 07, 2018 5:06 pm 
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Wayist

Joined: Thu May 17, 2018 9:07 pm
Posts: 21
I really agree that grinding T1s is tedious but currently feels necessary for the extra Uniques if nothing else. Seems like an easy solution to limiting the number of T1 dungeons you can take is to simply make the T1 zones longer to compensate. Just make them as long as is balanced and/ or adjust XP for them so that you have decent XP going into the T2s. For lore, just have the other zones 'cleared by other people' as any level 1 can waltz into a T1 and clear it easy. This would also let you go into the other T1s and give flavor text for them being mostly looted clean.

If T1s are going to be restricted by race I really suggest giving the option to choose your starting quest (other than for Yeek and Undead). Similar to how Arch/ Paradox Mages and Demented can ignore their starting quest. You can basically already do it already by doing a different T1 and coming back later anyway.

Edit: For higher difficulty modes, such as Madness, simply adjust T1s to be even longer than normal or allow an extra T1. Although the start of Madness hardly feels balanced anyways (implying the entire start of Madness is in dire need of a rework).


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 Post subject: Re: T1 Rework
PostPosted: Fri Jun 08, 2018 8:43 am 
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Cornac

Joined: Sat Sep 27, 2014 11:33 am
Posts: 35
Location: Irkkk
Nakarai wrote:
I really agree that grinding T1s is tedious but currently feels necessary for the extra Uniques if nothing else. Seems like an easy solution to limiting the number of T1 dungeons you can take is to simply make the T1 zones longer to compensate. Just make them as long as is balanced and/ or adjust XP for them so that you have decent XP going into the T2s. For lore, just have the other zones 'cleared by other people' as any level 1 can waltz into a T1 and clear it easy. This would also let you go into the other T1s and give flavor text for them being mostly looted clean.

If T1s are going to be restricted by race I really suggest giving the option to choose your starting quest (other than for Yeek and Undead). Similar to how Arch/ Paradox Mages and Demented can ignore their starting quest. You can basically already do it already by doing a different T1 and coming back later anyway.

Edit: For higher difficulty modes, such as Madness, simply adjust T1s to be even longer than normal or allow an extra T1. Although the start of Madness hardly feels balanced anyways (implying the entire start of Madness is in dire need of a rework).

Yes I think this excuse will be neat.
Some of T1 dungeon would be cleaned by others when you are away, while some of T1 dungeons would become worse as time passed.


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 Post subject: Re: T1 Rework
PostPosted: Fri Jun 08, 2018 3:29 pm 
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Wayist

Joined: Thu May 17, 2018 9:07 pm
Posts: 21
starsapphire wrote:
Nakarai wrote:
I really agree that grinding T1s is tedious but currently feels necessary for the extra Uniques if nothing else. Seems like an easy solution to limiting the number of T1 dungeons you can take is to simply make the T1 zones longer to compensate. Just make them as long as is balanced and/ or adjust XP for them so that you have decent XP going into the T2s. For lore, just have the other zones 'cleared by other people' as any level 1 can waltz into a T1 and clear it easy. This would also let you go into the other T1s and give flavor text for them being mostly looted clean.

Yes I think this excuse will be neat.
Some of T1 dungeon would be cleaned by others when you are away, while some of T1 dungeons would become worse as time passed.

I really like the idea of upgrading T1s, that way they aren't just simply locked. The number of upgraded T1s would have to be limited to just 1 or 2 however. Maybe every time you do a T1 half of the remaining T1s are cleared and the other half are upgraded? The last T1 would probably end up being more difficult than a T2.


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 Post subject: Re: T1 Rework
PostPosted: Sat Jun 09, 2018 2:10 am 
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Uruivellas

Joined: Fri Oct 10, 2014 4:00 pm
Posts: 872
Personally, I'd much rather the remaining T1 zones be upgraded in level or some other form of difficulty rather than having them locked or cleared of enemies.


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