ToME: the Tales of Maj'Eyal

Everything about ToME
It is currently Mon Dec 18, 2017 3:06 am

All times are UTC




Post new topic Reply to topic  [ 14 posts ] 
Author Message
PostPosted: Sun Mar 05, 2017 4:38 pm 
Offline
Low Yeek

Joined: Thu Dec 24, 2015 10:13 pm
Posts: 6
Heya darkgod,

Since you seem to be working on a major version currently, I thought this was a good time.

About Saves

Currently, saves do almost nothing. Even the save type your character is theoretically good at (i.e. the one depending on your main stat and likely supported by a few haphazard item and skill buffs) rarely do anything. If an enemy attacks you with an ability, it will hit almost all the time (unless you have some hard miss chance) and for 100% effect length.
I think I can count on one hand the number of times an effect missed me or was reduced in severity because of saves in my last two playthroughs (which were both normal wins with about 5 deaths each, btw - almost all of those by cc spirals).

This (together with the imho overall slightly too harsh diminishing returns of secondary stat stacking) makes any investment into saves (and by extension, attributes) feel very bad and not worth the effort and leads to the % immunity vs status effects stats to be overly valued, to the point that one routinely dismisses tier 5 items because the tier 1 item with 35% stun and disarm immunity is just so much better, for example.


I suggest having a look at the scaling of all secondary stats. Maybe lighten up a bit by making 4 tiers of 25 each instead of 5 of 20 each, or make the tier breakpoints nonlinear like 10/30/60/100/150 or something to that effect. Additionally, the effect time reduction on cc should trigger more often and with relevant numbers. Both these changes combined would go a long way to make investing in direct saves via items/skills or indirectly via attribute points feel meaningful for mid-level investments and not a waste of points for your primary stats.

At the same time, this would indirectly reduce the value of cc immunity stats on items, which makes for an overall more interesting decision making progress (right now, the main stats everyone looks for are these, life and sometimes crit, with everything else being an afterthought).

CC chains

One thing many, many rpg-like games have in common is that they use the same spells for players as for the enemies. That is a fluffy and on first glance reasonable stance, but it breaks the moment you think about hard cc and the fact that there is only one player but bazillions of foes that tend to not fight fair 1v1s :) TOME has that problem and tries to solve it by giving out said immunities and spells to get rid of such effects. This usually works fine, but it always breaks down with the heavy cc mobs or the rooms of doom where 2-3 cc using enemies are engaging you at the same time. Most character deaths after a certain level are "could not have done much else" deaths where you walk down a stair or open a door, get chain-cced and die, and an even bigger percentage of "almost deaths" are because of these situations but abusing the stairs.

I actually like that you have to be prepared for cc. It gives wild infusions and similarly working talents a place and makes for interesting gameplay. The problem is that in said situations, the gameplay gets very binary, very fast. Either you have accumulated immunities against almost all cc types or you do not, and even then, one opening might kill you because there are just so many silences or pinnings or whatever flying around that your 1-2 countermeasures cannot hold up, cooldown-wise.

The above suggestion about making sure cc duration reduction via saves triggers more often would help out a bit in these situations, as would the following suggested rule:

CC effects of the same type have diminishing returns when used on the same target within a certain time frame. Either future applications have more and more reduced durations or you gain a short immunity window after one effect ends.

Example variant 1) You get silenced by a rare mob for 5 turns (8 reduced by 3 because saves matter). The mobs silence spell has a cooldown of 6 turns. After the silence wears off, you are free for one turn, then the mob hits you again. But this time, it gets diminishing returns because it is hitting you again with the same type of cc within a short timeframe. Instead of the silence being similarly powerful again, it, say, works half as long base (so 4 reduced by 2-3 because saves matter).

Example variant 2) You get bombared by almost every single cc effect there is after walking down a stair and doing one action. You decide to cleanse the freeze with your physical wild infusion and are now free to act at least once. Instead of running up the stairs scratching your head on how to actually progress here, you now know that you will be immune to stuns/freezes for, say, 3 turns. Because of this, you actually stay to play the game because you have a chance if you use the right talents in the right order.


Some enemies simply have too many cc types at once

This ties into the above heavily, but since most cleanses only remove 1 cc effect from you and so many spells you get hit with apply multiple types, it gets frustrating very quickly. This gets even more problematic due to the fact that you cannot control which effect gets removed. Usually the game will chose the "correct", i.e. worst one, but not always.

Either reducing the amount of multi-cc enemies and/or giving players more multi-remove abilities would help making these situations feel less arbitrary.


Foes have feel... err saves, too

Both of these themes also apply to all our enemies, so completely locking down powerful bosses is now much harder to accomplish than before. Again, this makes the game less binary. Instead of either cheesing or getting cheesed, both sides now have a fighting chance.

If these changes make the game to easy overall, buffing some enemy types or their level scaling or whatnot is easily done, but the gameplay now rests on a less binary and more involving basis. More decision-driven successes and failures are good.


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Sun Mar 05, 2017 5:07 pm 
Offline
Sher'Tul

Joined: Sun Jun 15, 2014 12:19 am
Posts: 1063
Location: Yeehaw, pardner
Shibari is pushing to get stun nerfed a little, in the meantime, perhaps work on your positioning so that you aren't engaging 3 or more melee enemies at the same time and use movement infusons for the heavy stun/pin/daze immunity. Most melee characters should run double movement once you get 5 slots since the stun resist makes it actually possible to fight in melee against most rares.

As for walking down the stairs and getting cremated, 1.5 is bringing a small fix and mindstars of sand also exist. Useful for a quick dig.

_________________
A little bit of a starters guide written by yours truly here.


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Sun Mar 05, 2017 5:16 pm 
Offline
Spiderkin

Joined: Tue Dec 13, 2016 7:05 pm
Posts: 492
Currently if you get a lot of saves as a side effect of something else (PES, Unstoppable Force Salve, gear with saves on it + anything actually useful) you can save against a fair number of confusion/inner demons/entropy hits at least. Nothing that comes off physical power can be saved against reasonably though since enemies get far too much weapon mastery.


Anyway, i would prefer saves remaining a nonfactor because buffing saves would buff enemies, which both get more raw stats and thus saves and have less consistent status removal - all players that aren't running deliberate challenge builds have access to wild infusions (tho it would be nice if physical/mental infusion became more common) and Providence to remove status, and movement infusion to prevent the most dangerous one. There's also stuff like wintertide phial, dispersion gloves, crown of command and whatever you get from your class so players shouldn't be that bothered about status.

Enemies just ignoring everything that checks saves is bad though and buffing saves mindlessly like your proposal would essentially mean this (beating Elandar and Argoniel's saves on Insane is already shaky for some builds that require it like inner demons solip/psyshot or madness procs on doomed. randbosses usually spawn with saves slightly above your power until prodigies show up, too.)

Tl;dr just nerf stun lol

e: ok so the only real offenders in cc lock are stun (no amount of saves will prevent this unless weapon mastery phys power is fully reworked; and melee does not need nerfing) and confusion (mostly uses mindpower which is easier to save against except skullcracker which uses acc iirc, doesn't completely disable your character like stun, and resistances work against it before 100%). most other things don't stop you from using your escapes completely which is how you die. so nerf stun.

_________________
<Shibari> You're full of shit
<darkgod #tome> ster is a troll
<Sheila> and ster, i do agree with you on most things game-related, but do try to not be such an ass!
<mex> your posts lead to people like me being abused and murdered


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Sun Mar 05, 2017 9:17 pm 
Offline
Spiderkin

Joined: Mon Oct 09, 2006 7:47 pm
Posts: 576
I think the new talent in survival "danger sense", that allows a double check of saves, should *largely* improve the effectiveness of saves. And if I understand the code, randbosses should rarely take it.
I tried to use it and it seems efficient, even insane. But the comparisons are not simple.


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Sun Mar 05, 2017 9:50 pm 
Offline
Spiderkin

Joined: Tue Dec 13, 2016 7:05 pm
Posts: 492
ghostbuster wrote:
I think the new talent in survival "danger sense", that allows a double check of saves, should *largely* improve the effectiveness of saves. And if I understand the code, randbosses should rarely take it.
I tried to use it and it seems efficient, even insane. But the comparisons are not simple.

i don't think it will do very well, tl 6.5 danger sense lets you double save at -12 which means you have a whopping 10% extra chance to save if you have equal save to their power. most characters won't be getting tl 6.5 because they aren't rogue metaclass or have better to spend it on (opportunity cost of generics are high). also it's useless against physical power effects like everything else (seriously not even unstoppable force salve gets close to enemy phys power)

_________________
<Shibari> You're full of shit
<darkgod #tome> ster is a troll
<Sheila> and ster, i do agree with you on most things game-related, but do try to not be such an ass!
<mex> your posts lead to people like me being abused and murdered


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Tue Mar 07, 2017 9:10 am 
Offline
Cornac

Joined: Tue Jun 25, 2013 2:39 am
Posts: 30
I have no comment on saves as I don't think the mechanic has much value design-wise and would have preferred things be balanced around it not existing. Though I will note that it is a lot more useful than some people seem to know if and only if you pay very close attention to common stat breakpoints.

The diminishing returns on CC model I have only seen used in games with hard CC, usually as a response specifically to a threat of multiple players coordinating permanent chains of CC in competitive environments (raiding, PvP). Another reason they do this is part of their design requires that most classes have access to hard CC. Worth noting, TOME basically doesn't have a true hard CC mechanic, they have been systematically removed. Hope Wanes comes to mind, a talent that requires multiple turns of melee attack before it can even be used.

The problem with stun is stun is overpowered. It is absolutely crippling to the point of absurdity, mostly because of the talent cooldown lock. If you had a solution and it wasn't up to cleanse it now it never will be. Or, better yet, maybe your solution isn't instant cast and stun actually *put it on cooldown*. Because for some reason it can do that too.

If all stun did was the damage reduction/move speed penalty it would be quite powerful, which is appropriate for a mechanic that is almost literally easily accessible by every class.

The only solution to stun is to remove it as a possibility. Either it can't hit you at all, or 100% of the time you can cleanse it reliably (you need to be able to do this more than once for it to count), or your escapes are super reliable so you can just leave, or whatever. Otherwise, if you are near anything that poses any threat at all, you are dead.

Stun makes me angry. Legitimately angry. I've been doing a lot of 1.5 test characters lately and whats really striking is that since I don't want to do my little perfect start immunity rituals I often wind up just clicking off stun via dev mode all the damn time. Because it is literally impossible for me to play if I don't want to do all the crap I would on a real character otherwise. I imagine for normal players the frusteration comes from seemingly random total lockdown with no counter instead of just being spammed by it consistently.

Confusion is another problem. The power caps at 50%, and given how many things can apply this at range and through obstruction from other NPCs, this is just too severe. Much like stun even if you dramatically cut the strength of the effect it remains very dangerous.

Aside form those two, debuff spam is inflating and this is a problem, especially as randbosses and items applying a lot of debuffs become a bigger part of the game. Worth noting that those two are *much bigger* problems than the sum of the rest of the issue.

So, solutions. This has been in the "discuss for 1.6" category for a bit now. Stun and Confusion I think are pretty simple. Remove the cooldown block entirely from stun, lower the maximum failure chance of confusion to ~30%.

Debuff spam is more interesting. The Inscription system is core debuff removal for many, many builds, but it hasn't inflated along with the increased debuff count. Salves are incredibly generous in their debuff removal (2 at once and you can with 1 inscription cleanse 2 of all 3 types) and playing with them feels closer to what is reasonable to me.

I'm looking at revamping Inscriptions and as part of that I hope to add some that are specialized for dealing with high debuff counts, especially physical. These will give up the free heal, or bonus resist all, or whatever from the existing debuff options in exchange. I'll toss a link here to my inscription branch ones I bother to write up descriptions and reasoning.


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Wed Mar 08, 2017 11:37 am 
Offline
Cornac

Joined: Tue Mar 04, 2014 2:10 pm
Posts: 30
Well, the solution is kinda simple but it will be anoying to recode the current program. What we need is to just apply diminishing return for debuffs as well. This way both saves and skill will have sense. I am going to demonstrate on ad hoc created skill.

Debuf smack
Smack enemy for 100% dmg and aply DEBUF with (skill_level * 0.2 *phys_power + 8 ) strength.

With this skill you hit enemy and apply the DEBUFF and the debuff duration would be nonlieneary proportional to DEBUFF strength (similary to today saves).

The duration could be for example squarely proportional to power (example lower):

strength duration
1 1
4 2
9 3
16 4
25 5
36 6
49 7

It can be implemented by simply substracting the expected DEBUFF duration*2 from DEBUF power each turn.

What about saves?
Saves would be substracted from the debuf strength. For example you have 30 phys save and enemy have 60 phys power and hit you with DEBUF SMACK on level 5. This gives DEBUF 60*5*0.2 + 8 = 68 power. You substract your phys save from buff strength and resulting debuf power is 68-30 = 38 power which makes DEBUFF last for 6 turns.

Compare to having 60 phys save where the resulting power will be 8 which would equal to 2 turns DEBUF (or 3 depending on rounding).

How about stacking
Ok, you have this DEBUF on yourself and after 3 turns you get DEBUF SMACKED again. At the moment residual debuf power would be 12 (still 3 turns remaining).

This time you roll 40 on 1d50 dice. So 68-30 = 38 will be added to the remaining power of 12 giving it 50 power -> the newly applied will orwrite dubuf and will last for next 7 turns.

Conclusion
This way you will give sense to saves as they can efectively and drastical decrase debuf durration or completely negate it! Of course this is just a draft which has to be played around and if the tome would not be written in lua I would try to implement it myself... but i hate lua :D


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Wed Mar 08, 2017 12:02 pm 
Offline
Thalore

Joined: Fri Jul 18, 2014 11:48 am
Posts: 128
There are already exists addon viewtopic.php?f=50&t=35016 that along with other cool things changes saves/tohit mechanics. You can check it, and find: is it things for what are you looking for.

_________________
Sorry for my bed English

The Ultimate Endgame Boss


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Fri Mar 10, 2017 9:33 pm 
Offline
Sher'Tul Godslayer

Joined: Sat Apr 26, 2003 7:38 pm
Posts: 1970
Location: GMT-8:00
ster wrote:
Anyway, i would prefer saves remaining a nonfactor because buffing saves would buff enemies, which both get more raw stats and thus saves and have less consistent status removal - all players that aren't running deliberate challenge builds have access to wild infusions (tho it would be nice if physical/mental infusion became more common) and Providence to remove status, and movement infusion to prevent the most dangerous one. There's also stuff like wintertide phial, dispersion gloves, crown of command and whatever you get from your class so players shouldn't be that bothered about status.

Enemies just ignoring everything that checks saves is bad though and buffing saves mindlessly like your proposal would essentially mean this (beating Elandar and Argoniel's saves on Insane is already shaky for some builds that require it like inner demons solip/psyshot or madness procs on doomed. randbosses usually spawn with saves slightly above your power until prodigies show up, too.)


Why is something that's obviously causing problems for the game being treated as an immutable fact rather than another problem to fix? If NPC primary stat bonuses are breaking secondary statistic scaling get rid of them and instead give direct bonuses to the secondary statistics that they need and not those that break the game. For example instead of giving bonus con, give bonus life and not physical save or give bonus weapon damage instead of strength so that physical power doesn't inflate to the point of making saving throws pointless or give stamina instead of will so they can use abilities for longer without also getting thematically dubious mind and magic saves.

_________________
Digitochracy
n. 1. technocracy. 2. government by the numbers. 3. rule by people with the longest fingers.


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Fri Mar 10, 2017 9:47 pm 
Offline
Spiderkin

Joined: Tue Dec 13, 2016 7:05 pm
Posts: 492
Atarlost wrote:
Why is something that's obviously causing problems for the game being treated as an immutable fact rather than another problem to fix? If NPC primary stat bonuses are breaking secondary statistic scaling get rid of them and instead give direct bonuses to the secondary statistics that they need and not those that break the game. For example instead of giving bonus con, give bonus life and not physical save or give bonus weapon damage instead of strength so that physical power doesn't inflate to the point of making saving throws pointless or give stamina instead of will so they can use abilities for longer without also getting thematically dubious mind and magic saves.

tome is built on symmetry and this is way more effort for a change that actually isnt needed

you managed to miss the key points in my post too so grats

_________________
<Shibari> You're full of shit
<darkgod #tome> ster is a troll
<Sheila> and ster, i do agree with you on most things game-related, but do try to not be such an ass!
<mex> your posts lead to people like me being abused and murdered


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Fri Mar 10, 2017 10:23 pm 
Offline
Wyrmic

Joined: Tue Feb 10, 2015 1:41 pm
Posts: 296
Well the game is asymetric on one point : enemies have little gear while players do not. So to improve saves, give more of them on gear.


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Sun Mar 12, 2017 12:00 am 
Offline
Sher'Tul Godslayer

Joined: Sat Apr 26, 2003 7:38 pm
Posts: 1970
Location: GMT-8:00
ster wrote:
Atarlost wrote:
Why is something that's obviously causing problems for the game being treated as an immutable fact rather than another problem to fix? If NPC primary stat bonuses are breaking secondary statistic scaling get rid of them and instead give direct bonuses to the secondary statistics that they need and not those that break the game. For example instead of giving bonus con, give bonus life and not physical save or give bonus weapon damage instead of strength so that physical power doesn't inflate to the point of making saving throws pointless or give stamina instead of will so they can use abilities for longer without also getting thematically dubious mind and magic saves.

tome is built on symmetry and this is way more effort for a change that actually isnt needed

you managed to miss the key points in my post too so grats


If Tome were symmetric humanoid NPCs would not have higher stats than PCs.

_________________
Digitochracy
n. 1. technocracy. 2. government by the numbers. 3. rule by people with the longest fingers.


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Sun Mar 12, 2017 8:26 pm 
Offline
Wyrmic

Joined: Fri Jan 04, 2013 3:20 am
Posts: 251
so heres what I think
I think saves are pretty much worthless unless you can get 40+ to a save before T3 content, and 60+ to a save before the east, and in both of those cases you're just gonna save often against white-named enemies such as war bears and skeleton warriors
physical power is an exception, as weapon damage and weapon mastery should both be nerfed massively as melee and ranged weapon damage are both overpowered; physical power just gets way too high with weapon mastery and the likes of it being on NPCs the way it is; outright removing weapon mastery actually might be enough to fix it while underdoing it just a little bit; try making a cursed in decked out gear and compare him to an oozemancer or anorithil's damage

but anyway, id wanna say that the value of saves given by all talents and equipment should be multiplied by 1.5 or even too, but thatd make it too hard to stick debuffs on enemies on nightmare+, and even make it hard in the first place in lategame normal mode
instead of making yet ANOTHER situation where players can get access to a talent that NPCs aren't allowed to get(which should never be the case), you should give enemies bigger diminishing returns on saves than players do, then buff the amount of saves given by all talents and egos and the main attributes and by luck and the elixir of the saviour too by maybe 1.5 times

or maybe since enemies are typically lacking equipment, you could just drastically reduce the value of saves in whatever formula you use for itemization so that you can add far, far more saves to items


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Sun Mar 12, 2017 9:07 pm 
Offline
Spiderkin

Joined: Tue Dec 13, 2016 7:05 pm
Posts: 492
Or we could just not fix saves, as they aren't broken.

_________________
<Shibari> You're full of shit
<darkgod #tome> ster is a troll
<Sheila> and ster, i do agree with you on most things game-related, but do try to not be such an ass!
<mex> your posts lead to people like me being abused and murdered


Top
 Profile  
 
Display posts from previous:  Sort by  
Post new topic Reply to topic  [ 14 posts ] 

All times are UTC


Who is online

Users browsing this forum: Google [Bot] and 4 guests


You cannot post new topics in this forum
You cannot reply to topics in this forum
You cannot edit your posts in this forum
You cannot delete your posts in this forum
You cannot post attachments in this forum

Search for:
Jump to:  
Powered by phpBB® Forum Software © phpBB Group