ToME: the Tales of Maj'Eyal

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PostPosted: Tue Feb 07, 2017 12:37 am 
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Uruivellas

Joined: Sun Jun 15, 2014 12:19 am
Posts: 873
Location: Yeehaw, pardner
Cursed’s current state is that of an “unhinged strictly melee fighter” that has a lot of passives. They use both strength and willpower and by extension, both physical power and mindpower are important stats.
First a little bit of analysis:
Currently:
Gloom-sustain with 3 passive abilities. Zero cost sustain, applies statuses and in doing so gives defense. Last talent is fully defensive. Bonus mindpower effect for investing in tree. Pretty good. Should definitely stay.

Slaughter-Melee strike tree, talents damage scales with amount of current hate (which is hard to control on cursed). No stun present, has cleave at the end of the tree.

Endless Hunt-”CC” tree with beckon and harass prey being a way to reduce a target's damage output while endless hunt is good for helping you kill strong targets. Beckon effective against mages.

Strife-Strife is an odd category, blindside and preternatural senses have obvious synergy and flavor, dominate is an overall useful defense inhibitor. Doesn't really seem to have a theme in the tree?

Rampage-Most well known category of cursed. Should most likely stay mostly the same(?) but slam should be changed. Only source of stun on cursed (lol), besides gloom.

Predator-an interesting category, but fails both from a thematic perspective and a gameplay perspective. The most useful target to make is arguably a Shalore Elf so that the final boss is easier and then farm patrols. Has many bonuses, most of them very useful (including stun on hit) but difficult to utilize. Personally want to change this to a blood/bleeding based tree.

Fears-a tree described by some as “getting worse the more points you invest into it.” This idea is mostly due to the fact that the first 3 skills each give 2 new fears each when learned, meaning that rather than having a say… 50% to apply the -all resist fear, you now have a 16.66% to apply it with full investment. Overall, the tree’s niche is “CC for bosses.” Should most likely be changed to work like rogue's current (1.5b3) traps.

Cursed Form-A meh tree that could best be described as a generic sink. All 4 talents are passives and the first talent is seen by some as a disadvantage rather than an advantage. Any changes to this tree will affect Doomed as well (unless Doomed is given its own tree, but it's not like this a bad thing). More suited towards Cursed’s playstyle than Doomed’s.

Cursed Aura-One of the more unique parts of cursed/doomed, allows you to curse items, thus making equipment choices have a little bit of extra “choice” behind them. Unfortunately, the power of shrouds and nightmares far overshadows the rest of the curses. Cursed sentry and cursed ground are good and should stay as is.

Cursed Aura Effects-as said previously, shrouds and nightmares are the two strongest, the other couple are a little more underwhelming. Shrouds AND nightmares being the defense that cursed needs. Misfortune has little effect on bosses/rares, madness is just bad, and corpses isn't terrible but could use some extra oomph, not sure if ghouls actually do anything.

So, now to lay out the problems in a notes format:

Lack of actives, 3 mutually exclusives at talent tree ends (where strong talents should be), generics = trash, less rng on gifts, curses stronger- to nightmares and shrouds level, no level 10 trees (shares this with doomed, but at least Doomed has actives to use), fears needs less rng, predator is just meh, very little defensive talents, needs more. No status cleanse, weak healing that triggers on kill(useless for most bosses), some damage reduction/mitigation (rampage, beckon, harass prey, gloom, cursed earth, sentry) but could use a little more, especially for a melee class. Additionally, does very little damage and relies mostly on hit and run tactics. Hate is a horrible, terrible resource and adds very little to cursed.

So now a few thoughts:
Keep possibility of “any weapon” cursed by allowing Cursed to use two normal weapon in hands (two long swords essentially) and having all skills remain ambiguous? Reinforce switching of weapons by having skills do certain effects depending on weapon wielded(might cause issues with ogre)? Make rampage a level 10 tree (in the words of Ster, "- Cornacs")? Change predator to a blood/bleeding tree? Completely remove from Cursed or rework hate so that it actually isn't just a heal mod malus? More offenseive, costly effects at high hate, more defensive, cheap effects at lower hate? Encourage use of one specific weapon type or keep the ambiguity that Cursed has always had?

Quote:
My idea would be to theme the class more strongly around Rampage, which is probably their most defining feature.

Focusing cursed around their thematically best talent and actual best talent is a good idea, only issue is some people don't like being shoehorned (I.E. some prefer "different ways to play").

Quote:
Fix Hate

Overwhelming majority in this thread agree that hate is, more or less, a bad resource and could use some changes. HousePet offers an interesting idea for it through his Cursed rework mod:
Quote:
You no longer have innate hate gain on kills.
Hate no longer decays to 50% of the value it was when you last killed something.
Hate now relaxes towards 50.
Reaching 100 Hate will trigger a Rampage effect.
Reaching 0 Hate will trigger a reversed Rampage effect

Which personally sounds wonderful.

Quote:
[Cursed Body] saveable health and not have it use it up when your at full health

Would give cursed some better burst protection and make cursed body NOT useless. I'm all for it.

Quote:
I like the idea of a class that just grows strong the more it hates

So something like more talents used = less hate = stronger defense and less talents used = more hate = stronger offense?

Quote:
<50% hate it does decent damage and grants a bit of hate. At >50%, it also inflicts a random torment effect, which scaling duration based on hate, but costs more.

This type of stuff sounds like it would work wonderfully with HousePet's rework. As a result, I'd like to ask everyone to give HousePet's Cursed rework a try. viewtopic.php?f=36&t=46231#p213379

Will be updating this post as I think of more or as people discuss.

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Last edited by Micbran on Tue Feb 07, 2017 1:18 pm, edited 3 times in total.

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PostPosted: Tue Feb 07, 2017 2:04 am 
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Sher'Tul

Joined: Wed May 22, 2013 2:39 am
Posts: 1155
Location: Halifax, Nova Scotia, Canada
I'm not sure if the lack of active abilities should be seen as a con. Part of the charm with the Cursed Class is that they are a 'bump attack' melee centered class; with a lot of neat passives and sustains powering them up. They aren't necessarily trained fighters like Bulwarks or Berserkers with a lot of skill or specialization with weapons, ignoring their capstone talents that correspond to specific weapon types.

Really it is moreso a problem that what active skills they do have are heavily effected by their Hate Resource, specifically in a way that is negative and detrimental to play with little positive benefit to make up for it when you are running around with a lot of Hate. The talents themselves also have a lack of useful effects on top of this - a weak heal malus on Slash, Accuracy debuff on Frenzy, knockback on Reckless Charge, limited stun on Slam, etc.

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Its amazing what the mind can come up with, but it shows talent to make something of it. - Davion Fuxa
Inscription Guide - Version 1.4.8
Let's Learn Tales of Maj'Eyal


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PostPosted: Tue Feb 07, 2017 2:22 am 
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Uruivellas

Joined: Sun Jun 15, 2014 12:19 am
Posts: 873
Location: Yeehaw, pardner
Personally, I see the lack of actives as a bad thing. Active talents drive a class, much more so a mindpower/physical power hybrid rather than just a pure physical power class. Just look at Cursed Earth and Cursed Sentry. Seen as two very powerful active talents, although they provide effects over time. Stuff like that can enhance Cursed's playstyle without directly turning them into a talent spamming melee guy.

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PostPosted: Tue Feb 07, 2017 3:04 am 
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Perspiring Physicist

Joined: Sun Sep 09, 2012 7:43 am
Posts: 5433
Being forced into bumping due to a bad resource system and a talent that blocks the use of actives does not make the class bump centric, it just makes it bad. Its not meant to be that way.

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PostPosted: Tue Feb 07, 2017 3:11 am 
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Cornac

Joined: Sun Apr 24, 2016 12:09 am
Posts: 42
So the biggest problems as I see it are :

Rampage length cut short by using anything.
None of their skills using attack speed and therefore not benefiting from Rampage.
Stalk doesn't switch targets and doesn't stack if you miss.
Curse tree basically is cursed sentry which doesn't fit thematically but kicks ass + curses which are just a pain and don't give you what you pay for in terms of generic spending.

Tbh I would be happy with a Cursed tweak but if you want to full rework then we could perhaps try and come up with some new talent lines and shuffle the existing. I have no idea how much work goes into making a class rework mod and how much you are willing to do. I take it you are considering a 'full rework' ?


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PostPosted: Tue Feb 07, 2017 3:24 am 
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Uruivellas

Joined: Sun Jun 15, 2014 12:19 am
Posts: 873
Location: Yeehaw, pardner
Cursed IS salavageable. The only thing that needs a rework is hate. Everything else can be fixed with a half-rework.

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PostPosted: Tue Feb 07, 2017 3:41 am 
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Halfling

Joined: Sun Mar 09, 2014 5:07 am
Posts: 101
Bump-centric is the worst idea for any class, how is it supposed to be fun? I am all for more/better actives.

I am not sure is hate being the main problem with Cursed, I see its main problem is that the unique features of Cursed is not pronounced enough. Doomed is not a strong class by any means, but it is fun to play since it has some unique mechanisms. Tweaks to Cursed should be about making it to have a unique playstyle (and maybe potentially buff it along the way) instead of focusing on buffing individual talents to move it up on class tiers.

Unique playstyle with different weapon choices should be the original design of the class, and it should be emphasized more. Definitely like your idea of "reinforce switching of weapons by having skills do certain effects depending on weapon wielded"


Last edited by anonymous000 on Tue Feb 07, 2017 4:07 am, edited 1 time in total.

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PostPosted: Tue Feb 07, 2017 3:58 am 
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Sher'Tul

Joined: Wed May 22, 2013 2:39 am
Posts: 1155
Location: Halifax, Nova Scotia, Canada
anonymous000 wrote:
Bump-centric is the worst idea for any class, how is it supposed to be fun? I am all for more/better actives.


Technically Sawbutchers are another bump-centric class; and I would argue that they are quite fun.

I do agree with Micbran though that the only thing that really needs a rework on the Cursed Class is how the resource and talent interaction with said resource works.

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Its amazing what the mind can come up with, but it shows talent to make something of it. - Davion Fuxa
Inscription Guide - Version 1.4.8
Let's Learn Tales of Maj'Eyal


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PostPosted: Tue Feb 07, 2017 4:36 am 
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Perspiring Physicist

Joined: Sun Sep 09, 2012 7:43 am
Posts: 5433
Well you can get a semi reworked version here: viewtopic.php?f=36&t=46231#p213379

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PostPosted: Tue Feb 07, 2017 5:12 am 
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Thalore

Joined: Mon Feb 04, 2013 9:31 pm
Posts: 186
What's wrong with hate, exactly? Is it a problem for doomed also or just cursed? I like that hate is a unique resource type and it's cool thematically. If you do change hate don't just turn it into different colored Vim or something, try to keep the whole "this is a temporary resource that you can't stockpile" mechanic because I like that about it. I don't know how familiar you are with DCSS but I think that making hate work like Uskayaw piety is a potentially great idea, although it might cause problems with doomed.


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PostPosted: Tue Feb 07, 2017 6:19 am 
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Thalore

Joined: Sat Oct 12, 2013 4:45 pm
Posts: 187
yeah hate definitely needs a rework all the talents it effects are pretty much weaker for the association the slaughter tree would be considered weak on any other class at max strength with their bonus effects available from the start.

one idea to rework hate would be to change it so that abilities use a percentage of your current hate points becoming more powerful the more points they get and unlocking new effects.
like slash at max hate could extend to range 3 and apply an effect that lets you heal for some of the damage you do to the enemies hit but if you used it at low hate it'd only be a slightly stronger bump attack.

good way to fix the cursed form tree would be to drop the last two talents leave relentless and buff unnatural body increase the saveable health and not have it use it up when your at full health, that way it can act as a kind of over heal just kill a few mooks and you just added a conditional 100 hp to your life bar.

also you don't need to have actives on a class to make it interesting just take a look at gloom first talent is a passive crowd control sure, but the second two give you free hate and free crits respectively for hitting the enemies with them I'll admit it kinda conflicts with stalks focus on this one dude deal but if you just added a once per turn free attack on stalks target when you pop a gloom effect.

put all that together and you have a berserker horror movie slasher who can wade into the thick of combat and busy themselves bullying the mooks who are pissing themselves while still wailing on that one guy he really hates until he charges up enough hate to use an active at full power.

got more ideas but its late.


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PostPosted: Tue Feb 07, 2017 8:55 am 
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Cornac

Joined: Sun Apr 24, 2016 12:09 am
Posts: 42
So Housepet is this rework of yours something which is more or less complete or is it a WiP ?


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PostPosted: Tue Feb 07, 2017 9:22 am 
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Uruivellas

Joined: Tue May 14, 2013 3:45 pm
Posts: 752
My idea would be to theme the class more strongly around Rampage, which is probably their most defining feature.

One radical idea - perhaps remove the sustains like Surge etc, unlock Rampage and have it act as a passive. Make your Rampage power based off your hate - so at max hate it's a bit better than current, 0 hate a bit weaker (but on par with having Surge's movespeed sustain). Then change their actives around so that there's a bit of tension between powerful, high cost actives that drain your hate and so impact Rampage, and lower cost ones that you can use alongside it easy.

Regardless, the big things to change would be unlock Rampage, make Hate less of a pain to use, and bring the individual power level of their talents up.


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PostPosted: Tue Feb 07, 2017 10:52 am 
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Wyrmic

Joined: Tue Feb 10, 2015 1:41 pm
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Razakai wrote:
One radical idea - perhaps remove the sustains like Surge etc, unlock Rampage and have it act as a passive. Make your Rampage power based off your hate - so at max hate it's a bit better than current, 0 hate a bit weaker (but on par with having Surge's movespeed sustain). Then change their actives around so that there's a bit of tension between powerful, high cost actives that drain your hate and so impact Rampage, and lower cost ones that you can use alongside it easy.

I like the idea of a class that just grows strong the more it hates :D And when that hate drops it's just a normal guy that's left. It'd probably need a redo on Hate management though to make it more controlable but then again, the current management isn't exactly liked anyway.

You could even include a couple inverse hate talent lines that actually grow stronger the less hate you have. For example one talent line is defensive, and stronger the less hate you have to contrast with how Rampage increases your offensive capabilities.

To prevent using Rampage as an escape tool you'd have to gut the move speed bonus included or make it somehow only work when moving towards an enemy.


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PostPosted: Tue Feb 07, 2017 11:28 am 
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Uruivellas

Joined: Tue May 14, 2013 3:45 pm
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I'd probably give it a decent movespeed passive (on par with Surge) and then put in stuff to encourage staying in LoS of enemies so you don't keep popping round corners. Using Rampage as an escape is probably ok as that's what Cursed already do, but just changed so you do want to encourage the thematic playstyle of recklessly attacking enemies.

For their actives you could probably scale them with hate-based breakpoints. Take Slash for example - make this low cooldown (but one of the only short CDs Cursed has, as I think they should remain slightly less active-focused), and at <50% hate it does decent damage and grants a bit of hate. At >50%, it also inflicts a random torment effect, which scaling duration based on hate, but costs more. Stuff along those lines. So when you first enter a fight you build up hate with a few talents, then start carefully using hate-consumers for big effects while making sure not to drop your Rampage too low. And yeah, you could have some effects which are more useful at low hate - these could be buffs and defensive things, as then you get a nice flow:

Start fight (low hate) > activate buffs and defensive things (medium hate) > attack a few times + using any talents that are still generating hate (max hate) > begin burning off hatred with powerful consumers and finishers, either going all-out if you can end a fight, or carefully to keep your Rampage topped off


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