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PostPosted: Mon Feb 06, 2017 2:38 pm 
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Low Yeek

Joined: Sat Feb 04, 2017 2:13 pm
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I think everyone agrees for most class combinations, Con has always been a dump stat. It's nice to see that Con has received some addressing for the 1.5 update, but I'd argue it's not really enough.

Does anyone else think .5 healmod increase per point is a bit of an insult? Of course it's better than nothing, but I'd think we should get at least a flat '1' increase per point of Con.

I'm curious what the community thinks about this matter, though.

Thanks.


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PostPosted: Mon Feb 06, 2017 4:22 pm 
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Magical Girl

Joined: Wed Aug 27, 2014 11:36 am
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Not at all, healmod is one of the stronger stats in the game and something that is, for the most part, universally useful.
DG doesn't want Con to become a stat everyone always maxes for an easy time either, so it probably won't get buffed further.

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PostPosted: Mon Feb 06, 2017 5:13 pm 
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Sher'Tul

Joined: Wed May 22, 2013 2:39 am
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Location: Halifax, Nova Scotia, Canada
Keep in mind that buffing Constitution with Heal Mod means not only do player characters get stronger, but enemies do as well. If an enemy is capable of healing itself and HAS high constitution, it will be THAT much harder to kill.

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PostPosted: Mon Feb 06, 2017 6:01 pm 
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Spiderkin

Joined: Tue Dec 13, 2016 7:05 pm
Posts: 492
Davion Fuxa wrote:
Keep in mind that buffing Constitution with Heal Mod means not only do player characters get stronger, but enemies do as well. If an enemy is capable of healing itself and HAS high constitution, it will be THAT much harder to kill.

literally when is this ever relevant? nothing heals for that much even on insane (maybe grushnak? argoniel if she gets vitality?)


Anyway healmod for con makes it a decent 4th stat but as long as bathe in light or unstoppable force salve stay as options every character can take i'd still never max it because builds that care about it that much can just cap healmod with one skill anyway. Yes, even with the BiL nerfs.

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<Shibari> You're full of shit
<darkgod #tome> ster is a troll
<Sheila> and ster, i do agree with you on most things game-related, but do try to not be such an ass!
<mex> your posts lead to people like me being abused and murdered


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PostPosted: Mon Feb 06, 2017 9:23 pm 
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Wyrmic

Joined: Tue Dec 20, 2016 7:46 pm
Posts: 239
Yeah, this makes both players and enemies a little stronger, but not by that much, so the boost to enemy healing shouldn't be a big problem with typical enemy con values.

Anyway, you mostly have to worry about enemy healing on madness I hear, as then enemies with vitality are practically unkillable if you don't have a way to negate their healing.


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PostPosted: Fri Feb 10, 2017 5:13 am 
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Sher'Tul Godslayer

Joined: Mon Feb 14, 2011 11:16 pm
Posts: 2262
Number43 wrote:
Yeah, this makes both players and enemies a little stronger, but not by that much, so the boost to enemy healing shouldn't be a big problem with typical enemy con values.

Anyway, you mostly have to worry about enemy healing on madness I hear, as then enemies with vitality are practically unkillable if you don't have a way to negate their healing.


I've played hundreds of hours on madness. This is very rarely a problem

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PostPosted: Thu Mar 23, 2017 3:07 am 
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Wyrmic

Joined: Fri Jan 04, 2013 3:20 am
Posts: 251
Sheila wrote:
Not at all, healmod is one of the stronger stats in the game and something that is, for the most part, universally useful.
DG doesn't want Con to become a stat everyone always maxes for an easy time either, so it probably won't get buffed further.

maybe you should get rid of the healmod from con and give it crit reduction instead
as your body becomes sturdier, it also learns how to fortify its weak points

maybe giving constitution .35 crit reduction per point could make constitution become a stat that most insane players aren't just gonna completely ignore without also making burst damage an issue by nerfing gear

on related note, I also think that life rating above 10 should be greatly buffed(while bulwark gets 2 less), and life rating below 10 should be greatly nerfed, since the bonus HP from gear isn't really gonna change, and having a tiny life rating is largely inconsequential because you can just get 100 hp from a ring and 10 life rating is only close to 900 hp at level 50


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PostPosted: Thu Mar 23, 2017 7:46 am 
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Spiderkin

Joined: Tue Dec 13, 2016 7:05 pm
Posts: 492
Zeyphor wrote:

on related note, I also think that life rating above 10 should be greatly buffed(while bulwark gets 2 less), and life rating below 10 should be greatly nerfed

agreed, die elves



e: make con give armor

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<Shibari> You're full of shit
<darkgod #tome> ster is a troll
<Sheila> and ster, i do agree with you on most things game-related, but do try to not be such an ass!
<mex> your posts lead to people like me being abused and murdered


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PostPosted: Thu Mar 23, 2017 11:49 am 
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Magical Girl

Joined: Wed Aug 27, 2014 11:36 am
Posts: 412
Zeyphor wrote:
Sheila wrote:
Not at all, healmod is one of the stronger stats in the game and something that is, for the most part, universally useful.
DG doesn't want Con to become a stat everyone always maxes for an easy time either, so it probably won't get buffed further.

maybe you should get rid of the healmod from con and give it crit reduction instead
as your body becomes sturdier, it also learns how to fortify its weak points

maybe giving constitution .35 crit reduction per point could make constitution become a stat that most insane players aren't just gonna completely ignore without also making burst damage an issue by nerfing gear

on related note, I also think that life rating above 10 should be greatly buffed(while bulwark gets 2 less), and life rating below 10 should be greatly nerfed, since the bonus HP from gear isn't really gonna change, and having a tiny life rating is largely inconsequential because you can just get 100 hp from a ring and 10 life rating is only close to 900 hp at level 50

Nah. Ogre doesn't need buffs and Yeek doesn't need nerfs :) Life rating is fine and it shouldn't make a bigger difference than it does.

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"I'll bond with a cactus until my buttcheeks touch the sand before I play nethack again" -Gagarin


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PostPosted: Thu Mar 23, 2017 2:05 pm 
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Spiderkin

Joined: Tue Dec 13, 2016 7:05 pm
Posts: 492
Sheila wrote:
Zeyphor wrote:
Sheila wrote:
Not at all, healmod is one of the stronger stats in the game and something that is, for the most part, universally useful.
DG doesn't want Con to become a stat everyone always maxes for an easy time either, so it probably won't get buffed further.

maybe you should get rid of the healmod from con and give it crit reduction instead
as your body becomes sturdier, it also learns how to fortify its weak points

maybe giving constitution .35 crit reduction per point could make constitution become a stat that most insane players aren't just gonna completely ignore without also making burst damage an issue by nerfing gear

on related note, I also think that life rating above 10 should be greatly buffed(while bulwark gets 2 less), and life rating below 10 should be greatly nerfed, since the bonus HP from gear isn't really gonna change, and having a tiny life rating is largely inconsequential because you can just get 100 hp from a ring and 10 life rating is only close to 900 hp at level 50

Nah. Ogre doesn't need buffs and Yeek doesn't need nerfs :) Life rating is fine and it shouldn't make a bigger difference than it does.

But isn't life rating meaningless :lol:

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<Shibari> You're full of shit
<darkgod #tome> ster is a troll
<Sheila> and ster, i do agree with you on most things game-related, but do try to not be such an ass!
<mex> your posts lead to people like me being abused and murdered


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PostPosted: Thu Mar 23, 2017 2:44 pm 
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Wyrmic

Joined: Fri Jan 04, 2013 3:20 am
Posts: 251
Sheila wrote:
Nah. Ogre doesn't need buffs and Yeek doesn't need nerfs :) Life rating is fine and it shouldn't make a bigger difference than it does.

come on you can just equip a lantern that gives you 10 con's worth of hp in t1 content and it'll be like they weren't nerfed right?
and the yeek starting zone used to be harder anyway

also ster I would've also suggested con giving armor, but given the weapon damage nerf(and hopefully also armor squish or nerf) coming in 1.6, I'd rather that not happen


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PostPosted: Thu Mar 23, 2017 4:46 pm 
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Magical Girl

Joined: Wed Aug 27, 2014 11:36 am
Posts: 412
I never said life rating is meaningless; I said it's not as big of a deal as people make of it, it can make a difference but it won't break your run, and that's fine.

And wait zeyphor you're actually serious on bufifng ogre and nerfing yeek? That's a terrible idea and something that will never happen, sorry.
Ogre doesn't need to be stronger, the game is already braindead easy enough for them, if anything they need to be nerfed further :lol:

Yes, the Yeek starting area used to be impossibly hard and that was scrapped because there's no reason for Yeek to be unplayable :)

DG himself refused to make Con give more HP so that it won't become an universal "do or die" stat, that probably won't change. Con is fine right now for the most part, it's not spectacular but at least it's worth an investment.

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"As dying is one of the leading causes of death, you should avoid dying." -rekenner

"I'll bond with a cactus until my buttcheeks touch the sand before I play nethack again" -Gagarin


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PostPosted: Thu Mar 23, 2017 7:52 pm 
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Wyrmic

Joined: Fri Jan 04, 2013 3:20 am
Posts: 251
Sheila wrote:
I never said life rating is meaningless; I said it's not as big of a deal as people make of it, it can make a difference but it won't break your run, and that's fine.

And wait zeyphor you're actually serious on bufifng ogre and nerfing yeek? That's a terrible idea and something that will never happen, sorry.
Ogre doesn't need to be stronger, the game is already braindead easy enough for them, if anything they need to be nerfed further :lol:

Yes, the Yeek starting area used to be impossibly hard and that was scrapped because there's no reason for Yeek to be unplayable :)

DG himself refused to make Con give more HP so that it won't become an universal "do or die" stat, that probably won't change. Con is fine right now for the most part, it's not spectacular but at least it's worth an investment.

well heres how I see it Sheila
theres an issue right now with life rating meaning barely anything unless you have a ton of it; it really seems like something that should be much more meaningful
its not gonna get solved by making items that give more hp give less hp than they already do because itd make burst damage an issue
apparently it won't get solved by boosting by say, 1.5, the positive and negative effects of life rating using 10 as a baseline

again, 20 life rating gets nearly 900 more hp than 10 life rating at lvl 50 atm; its probably not 90 hp at 50 per life rating, but for the sake of simplicity ill assume that it is
as a yeek you would lose 135 hp at level 50 if life rating were amplified to be 50% more significant, and an ogre would gain 135 hp at level 50
if that really is that bad, then you could also add 1 life rating to yeeks and nerf the %chance on scar scripted flesh and the timed effect on writ large in some way too

I guess by greatly buffed and greatly nerfed you thought I might've meant something additive instead of multiplicative; a 50% greater effect is I think a big buff/nerf

EDIT: now that I'd thought more about it I think the baseline would be 0 life rating in order to make sense... which would cause even yeek solipsists to get buffed, so then the issue would be ogres... unless you also made +hp gear give less bonus hp


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PostPosted: Thu Mar 23, 2017 8:43 pm 
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Spiderkin

Joined: Tue Dec 13, 2016 7:05 pm
Posts: 492
imo keep buffing the best race in the game

making life rating meaningful makes con even worse btw

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<Shibari> You're full of shit
<darkgod #tome> ster is a troll
<Sheila> and ster, i do agree with you on most things game-related, but do try to not be such an ass!
<mex> your posts lead to people like me being abused and murdered


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PostPosted: Fri Mar 24, 2017 2:15 am 
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Wyrmic

Joined: Fri Jan 04, 2013 3:20 am
Posts: 251
ster wrote:
imo keep buffing the best race in the game

making life rating meaningful makes con even worse btw

okay you've got your points ster, but with that crit reduction from con change con would be fine especially if life from gear was nerfed at the same time; its not like you'd take con in 1.5.2 if it gave 10 hp per point anyway
I seem to have not realized that it'd be a net buff for ogres even with an hp gear nerf, so I guess they could be nerfed anyway

...so I'll try to collect my thoughts
buffing life rating across the board makes the game easier on all difficulties, but then why even nerf hp on gear more than a little bit? life rating would become meaningful, but with a 50% increase it'd create a new problem of, well, the game becoming easier(which it did in 1.5.0); maybe life rating could be buffed by 25% instead
if hp from gear is nerfed by 40% maybe people like you would just, well, cross that middle ground and call hp gear bad, hp gear would not quite be fixed that way, maybe it could be nerfed by 20% instead of 25% to make sure it doesn't cross over to the other side of that middle ground
and with the con change it'd be a useful defensive stat unless you're an alchemist or oozemancer, so con would become meaningful
theres also yeeks, they'd get a net buff so they're not really a problem, they don't need life rating boosted to 8
and then theres ogres, with more life rating they'd be too much better, though I'm not really sure if a nerf to anything other than grisly constitution(again) would fix them... maybe using a 2h with 1 hand could increase fatigue too, as well as the inscription boost being lowered to 30% max, or maybe 25% max, and also scar scripted flesh is really good at even 1 point so I think it have its chance lowered by less than half; I'm not quite sure if all that'd make ogres not OP though

so the remaining problem stemming from a life rating boost, if there is one, would be ogres... at least from what I can see; I'd imagine with how often I've been a completely wrong retard theres some glaring issue(s) I'm not seeing with that


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