ToME: the Tales of Maj'Eyal

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PostPosted: Mon Jan 30, 2017 1:23 am 
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Sher'Tul

Joined: Wed May 22, 2013 2:39 am
Posts: 1239
Location: Halifax, Nova Scotia, Canada
This seems like a change that should be opposed I think. While stair dancing is obviously abusive in pretty well all rogue-likes that allow it, notably Tales of Maj'Eyal is pretty good about making it difficult by pulling you away from the staircase or preventing you from going up with certain detrimental effects.

I also couldn't see such a change being good unless certain instances are redesigned to prevent making entry into a level unusually difficult - ie, preventing enemies from spawning near the stairs in random instances, removing Dark Crypt instances 1-4, making a boss vault in Heart of the Gloom, turning an instance like Ruins of Telmur into a fixed instance to control for enemies, etc.

IE, if you aren't catching on, if you remove stair dancing in certain situations, you are going to have to do quite a bit to make up for the amount of unfair situations players are going to have to deal with. Getting player characters killed just entering an instance is 'not' going to be something people are going to like.

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PostPosted: Mon Jan 30, 2017 1:35 am 
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Uruivellas

Joined: Sun May 19, 2013 1:58 am
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I'm agree, seems like a couple people wanted it because they think Madness shouldn't be beatable or something. No real benefit to doing it imo.

Edit: Apparently enemies are no longer going to spawn within 5 tiles of the stairs so this change will actually be fine then.

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PostPosted: Mon Jan 30, 2017 3:11 am 
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Sher'Tul

Joined: Wed May 22, 2013 2:39 am
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Location: Halifax, Nova Scotia, Canada
It's good that there will be a minimum radius, but those few odd instances that will still cause problems. Spawning in the middle of the Heart of the Gloom's instance near the Withering Thing with lots of riff raff isn't really going to change if they are next to you or beyond 5 tiles. Smaller instances like Dark Crypt and Telmur don't have a high spawn rate in a closed space and there will still be tonnes of enemies to deal with. If this change is coming in - go all the way.

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PostPosted: Mon Jan 30, 2017 5:52 am 
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Perspiring Physicist

Joined: Sun Sep 09, 2012 7:43 am
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But I loved those times where you walk down the stairs in Dreadfell and walk into a room full of vampires having a soiree, its just feels so awkward. :mrgreen:

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PostPosted: Mon Jan 30, 2017 7:27 am 
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Wayist

Joined: Sat Dec 24, 2016 9:18 pm
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Sheila wrote:
I made it happen, DG made it radius 4 when I wanted radius 5, might need to convince further!
Also I'd like the cooldown on insane dropped from 7 to 5 and madness is whatever for the most part.


That's good news! I completely agree on radius 5 and dropping the cooldown from 7 to 5!
In two turns many horrible things can happen! :lol:


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PostPosted: Mon Jan 30, 2017 8:01 am 
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Spiderkin

Joined: Tue Dec 13, 2016 7:05 pm
Posts: 492
Davion Fuxa wrote:
Heart of the Gloom Dark Crypt and Telmur

I'm not seeing the issue here given that you should avoid all of these places anyway, stairdancing or no.
Scattering enemies near stairs is great and essentially makes this a net positive for all non-madness players so i'm cool with it, and i guess the stairdancing penalty being on nightmare but not normal means we're getting closer to properly differentiating the two.

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<Shibari> You're full of shit
<darkgod #tome> ster is a troll
<Sheila> and ster, i do agree with you on most things game-related, but do try to not be such an ass!
<mex> your posts lead to people like me being abused and murdered


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PostPosted: Mon Jan 30, 2017 11:44 am 
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Magical Girl

Joined: Wed Aug 27, 2014 11:36 am
Posts: 388
ster wrote:
Davion Fuxa wrote:
Heart of the Gloom Dark Crypt and Telmur

I'm not seeing the issue here given that you should avoid all of these places anyway, stairdancing or no.
Scattering enemies near stairs is great and essentially makes this a net positive for all non-madness players so i'm cool with it, and i guess the stairdancing penalty being on nightmare but not normal means we're getting closer to properly differentiating the two.

These numbers might not be final but it's on normal and nightmare. 3 turns on normal and 5 on nightmare, it's not on easier, but maybe you have a point.

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PostPosted: Mon Jan 30, 2017 6:06 pm 
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Spiderkin

Joined: Tue Dec 13, 2016 7:05 pm
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Sheila wrote:
These numbers might not be final but it's on normal and nightmare. 3 turns on normal and 5 on nightmare, it's not on easier, but maybe you have a point.

My bad, i confused the Normal and Easier numbers lol e: i guess it wasn't that awful of an idea given that it got taken down a peg for every diff except madness. massive net positive overall: less death, less tedium, dark crypt is sometimes a good idea

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<Shibari> You're full of shit
<darkgod #tome> ster is a troll
<Sheila> and ster, i do agree with you on most things game-related, but do try to not be such an ass!
<mex> your posts lead to people like me being abused and murdered


Last edited by ster on Mon Jan 30, 2017 7:58 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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PostPosted: Mon Jan 30, 2017 6:10 pm 
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Magical Girl

Joined: Wed Aug 27, 2014 11:36 am
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ster wrote:
Sheila wrote:
These numbers might not be final but it's on normal and nightmare. 3 turns on normal and 5 on nightmare, it's not on easier, but maybe you have a point.

My bad, i confused the Normal and Easier numbers lol

With radius 5 spawn protection, dark crypt might actually be doable. Gloom levels are too big for it to matter much but I always do gloom with little issue on insane, I just do it as my last t1 (before thief tunnels). Can't deny I use stairs sometimes in gloom, so it might get harder after this nerf.

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PostPosted: Wed Feb 08, 2017 1:56 am 
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Sher'Tul

Joined: Thu Jan 23, 2003 8:13 pm
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Location: A shallow water area south of Bree
[sound F/X: source diving] So, for reference, it looks like an addon that neutralizes this particular nerf would be trivially easy to implement. Hypothetically speaking, would such an addon be of interest to the local commentariat?

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PostPosted: Wed Feb 08, 2017 2:24 am 
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Uruivellas

Joined: Sun Jun 15, 2014 12:19 am
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Location: Yeehaw, pardner
I'll be honest, the nerf isn't that bad when coupled with the stair changes that Sheila asked for.

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PostPosted: Wed Feb 08, 2017 2:45 am 
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Magical Girl

Joined: Wed Aug 27, 2014 11:36 am
Posts: 388
Micbran wrote:
I'll be honest, the nerf isn't that bad when coupled with the stair changes that Sheila asked for.

<3

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PostPosted: Wed Feb 08, 2017 2:54 am 
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Cornac

Joined: Sat Mar 28, 2015 4:07 pm
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I like how this also makes Searing Halls and Gates Of Morning characters not randomly die!


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PostPosted: Wed Feb 08, 2017 3:08 am 
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Sher'Tul

Joined: Mon Jun 23, 2014 11:50 am
Posts: 1439
Don't forget about Anglowen. or was it AnglowYn? The archmage mountains. there were reports of someone dying to "the darkest light" (i think was it) the moment the they entered.


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PostPosted: Wed Feb 08, 2017 7:28 am 
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Spiderkin

Joined: Tue Dec 13, 2016 7:05 pm
Posts: 492
Radon26 wrote:
Don't forget about Anglowen. or was it AnglowYn? The archmage mountains. there were reports of someone dying to "the darkest light" (i think was it) the moment the they entered.

Thankfully darkest light was removed from the game entirely on enemies.

Also I forgot about the effects this had on the Gates/Searing Halls start, it's nice to see that finally gets addressed somehow even if it is indirectly. Can still lose an escort to RNG but escorts aren't that important anyway. (potential bug: does the naga boss that spawns right next to celestial start characters after teleporting get scattered around?)

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<Shibari> You're full of shit
<darkgod #tome> ster is a troll
<Sheila> and ster, i do agree with you on most things game-related, but do try to not be such an ass!
<mex> your posts lead to people like me being abused and murdered


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