ToME: the Tales of Maj'Eyal

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PostPosted: Sun Jan 29, 2017 9:22 am 
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Wayist

Joined: Sat Dec 24, 2016 9:18 pm
Posts: 28
Hello! This is the first time I write here but I'm an avid Tome player (almost 900hrs...sigh, look how much time I wasted, DarkGod you monster!). I read the next 1.5 will nerf stair dancing pretty hard (7 turns after a kill on insane).
Now, while I can understand taking out abusable things, I think something should be done about balance.
Here is an example, I enter the room and this is what I find (2 rares, telos, a bone giant randomboss and a unique I've already killed and a bunch trash mobs). The combo is so crazy there is no way I could survive without stair dancing, considering forcefield + tons of buffs allows me to survive just 3-4 turns. Fact is, without star dancing I could press quit and delete the savefile as this is not an optional quest. Situations like this might happen several times during a run (on none at all if you're lucky).
Enemies can already grab you, block the stairs and hit you with several debuffs that prevent you from using the stairs, in fact I don't know if I'll be able to clear that room anyway.
What I'm trying to say is: is good to take out abusable things to make the game more about strategy, but if a 20h run can end just because RNG decided so, than I'm not sure about it. Maybe change the way a level get generated so that you're guaranteed to have some space, be able to dig etc.

You need to cheese the game when the game is cheesing you, otherwise you just die and that's is.

I would even say that it's ok to nerf the stairs on normal and nightmare but not on insane, considering the horrible monstrosities the game can create.


Just my 2 cents, cheers! :wink:

http://i.imgur.com/bgGYs2o.jpg


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PostPosted: Sun Jan 29, 2017 11:11 am 
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Spiderkin

Joined: Tue Dec 13, 2016 7:05 pm
Posts: 492
Mex wrote:
all the stair dancing nerf means is that you need to stone wall before using stairs


Telmur is optional btw - just use the farportal you came back with or do the easier fearscape quest. Usually I just ignore it and this is the reason why.

The only other places i can think of where stair dancing is really necessary are pride entries (other than grushnak who cares, and in grushnak the threat is being battle called to the middle of the room where it's pretty hard to get back to stairs) and vor armory:1 (i can't argue for this).

There are some minor uses of stair dancing in Dreadfell and Daikara sometimes too, but that can be replicated by other means anyway.

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<Shibari> You're full of shit
<darkgod #tome> ster is a troll
<Sheila> and ster, i do agree with you on most things game-related, but do try to not be such an ass!
<mex> your posts lead to people like me being abused and murdered


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PostPosted: Sun Jan 29, 2017 11:38 am 
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Wayist

Joined: Sat Dec 24, 2016 9:18 pm
Posts: 28
Mex's quote seems to imply that stair dancing is actually "necessary", at least to some degree, and that we're going to do it anyway. If that's how things are, then I don't see how adding another element of luck (stone wall ego) is a good thing.
If the game were to be re-balanced around this nerf then I would be 100% happy about it but if the reality of it is that you just have to try even harder, then I'm not sure.


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PostPosted: Sun Jan 29, 2017 12:05 pm 
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Spiderkin

Joined: Tue Dec 13, 2016 7:05 pm
Posts: 492
Mex only plays madness and is a huge memelord, the quote up there is a shitpost (though it does have a point, this makes life better for AM/PM/others with easy ways to wait off the penalty and worse for bulwarks etc)

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<Shibari> You're full of shit
<darkgod #tome> ster is a troll
<Sheila> and ster, i do agree with you on most things game-related, but do try to not be such an ass!
<mex> your posts lead to people like me being abused and murdered


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PostPosted: Sun Jan 29, 2017 1:05 pm 
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Uruivellas

Joined: Sun Jun 15, 2014 12:19 am
Posts: 947
Location: Yeehaw, pardner
Someone on tome chat hinted that they would like for a "have no enemies spawn within x tiles of stairs" kinda thing to make up for the nerf.

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PostPosted: Sun Jan 29, 2017 1:34 pm 
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Wayist

Joined: Sat Dec 24, 2016 9:18 pm
Posts: 28
Micbran wrote:
Someone on tome chat hinted that they would like for a "have no enemies spawn within x tiles of stairs" kinda thing to make up for the nerf.


It's a good idea, though I'm not sure how it would work for small areas like the one in the screenshot. Another thing that could be done is giving players more active digging tools, like some wand that works like pulverizing auger or quake.
"You can't go back, but you can create your own space for warfare" :evil:


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PostPosted: Sun Jan 29, 2017 1:52 pm 
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Spiderkin

Joined: Tue Dec 13, 2016 7:05 pm
Posts: 492
random_pal wrote:
Another thing that could be done is giving players more active digging tools

isnt mindstar of sand enough for you

_________________
<Shibari> You're full of shit
<darkgod #tome> ster is a troll
<Sheila> and ster, i do agree with you on most things game-related, but do try to not be such an ass!
<mex> your posts lead to people like me being abused and murdered


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PostPosted: Sun Jan 29, 2017 2:41 pm 
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Wayist

Joined: Sat Dec 24, 2016 9:18 pm
Posts: 28
ster wrote:
random_pal wrote:
Another thing that could be done is giving players more active digging tools

isnt mindstar of sand enough for you


Yeah mindstar of sand is great but a bit more variety isn't bad. Sometimes I die because I have more than 3 squares do dig before I can get completely away or because you have to use a turn to switch to the second set and another one to activate burrow. Having something to dig like 5 squares in 1 turn could be great and a lucky quake can sole many problems.
Anyway, I'm just throwing out some ideas :D


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PostPosted: Sun Jan 29, 2017 7:43 pm 
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Sher'Tul

Joined: Mon Jun 23, 2014 11:50 am
Posts: 1439
scouting tools (hats of eyes or tracking lanterns, just just actual talents) aren't that difficult to come by, so i believe simply putting door close to you, should already by a great deal of help. although making sure that there is at least 1 free adjacent tile (just in case for escort) should also be included.


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PostPosted: Sun Jan 29, 2017 11:22 pm 
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Magical Girl

Joined: Wed Aug 27, 2014 11:36 am
Posts: 377
I made it happen, DG made it radius 4 when I wanted radius 5, might need to convince further!
Also I'd like the cooldown on insane dropped from 7 to 5 and madness is whatever for the most part.

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"As dying is one of the leading causes of death, you should avoid dying." -rekenner

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PostPosted: Sun Jan 29, 2017 11:39 pm 
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Perspiring Physicist

Joined: Sun Sep 09, 2012 7:43 am
Posts: 5471
You should already have access to a load of repositioning tools to deal with this sort of situation.
Running back up the stairs doesn't really solve the issue and if you are relying on it, its just a crutch holding you back.
It is recognised that the random nature of the game can give you near unsolvable situations, that is why the Eidolon exists.

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PostPosted: Sun Jan 29, 2017 11:44 pm 
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Sher'Tul

Joined: Mon Jun 23, 2014 11:50 am
Posts: 1439
eidolon's "revive elsewhere", is fine, as long as the dungeon was optional.
main quest dungeones however, have to be tacked sooner or later.

also, repositioning tools are fine and all... if you have a place to reposiiton to.
otherwise you are just dancing in a closet.


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PostPosted: Mon Jan 30, 2017 12:32 am 
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Spiderkin

Joined: Tue Dec 13, 2016 7:05 pm
Posts: 492
HousePet wrote:
Running back up the stairs doesn't really solve the issue

But it does, as long as you can kill at least one monster without dying stair dancing can eventually prevail. Also I don't like relying on the eidolon because having deaths on my char sheet makes me look bad.

_________________
<Shibari> You're full of shit
<darkgod #tome> ster is a troll
<Sheila> and ster, i do agree with you on most things game-related, but do try to not be such an ass!
<mex> your posts lead to people like me being abused and murdered


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PostPosted: Mon Jan 30, 2017 12:51 am 
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Perspiring Physicist

Joined: Sun Sep 09, 2012 7:43 am
Posts: 5471
And exploiting monster's inability to use stairs doesn't make you feel bad?

Abusing creatures with disabilities is bad and you should feel bad. :P

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My feedback meter decays into coding. Give me feedback and I make mods.


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PostPosted: Mon Jan 30, 2017 1:03 am 
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Sher'Tul

Joined: Mon Jun 23, 2014 11:50 am
Posts: 1439
you are right. :(
taking advantage of your advantage is wrong.
next time i fight something incapable of wielding a weapon... i am fighting unarmed. and not using talents, because not every enemy has those. also naked. because fair.


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