ToME: the Tales of Maj'Eyal

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 Post subject: Re: Buff antimagic
PostPosted: Sun Mar 27, 2016 3:21 am 
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Sher'Tul

Joined: Sun Jun 15, 2014 12:19 am
Posts: 1059
Location: Yeehaw, pardner
ibanix wrote:
This leaves you with Steam (lol, no); psionic forces and nature forces (mindpowers again); and the Zigur-specifc "arcane disrupting powers", which is again not actually explained.


Don't forget hate! :P "I just hate this magic so much!"

Personally, HousePet's spell save idea sounds like a fantastic way for non-mindpower users to be able to more effectively utilize antimagic and still stay true to its theme.

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 Post subject: Re: Buff antimagic
PostPosted: Sun Mar 27, 2016 3:29 am 
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Perspiring Physicist

Joined: Sun Sep 09, 2012 7:43 am
Posts: 5524
In addition to the category, you also get some rather nice buffs to antimagic artifacts.

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 Post subject: Re: Buff antimagic
PostPosted: Sun Mar 27, 2016 4:00 am 
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Halfling

Joined: Sun Mar 09, 2014 5:07 am
Posts: 118
There are too few antimagic artifacts in the game, you can finish the game without encountering any artifact that gives extra buff to antimagic character unless you have item vault, and a lot of antimagic artifacts which gives buffs are so-so even with the buffs

As for antimagic power source, HousePet's spell save sounds cool but it seems dwarfs will be the race most suitable for antimagic if we go this way. It sounds right and works right to have warrior/rogue invest in willpower for antimagic talents, only that the antimagic tree is disappointing even if you did invest in willpower


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 Post subject: Re: Buff antimagic
PostPosted: Sun Mar 27, 2016 6:28 am 
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Wyrmic

Joined: Thu May 23, 2013 12:25 am
Posts: 244
anonymous000 wrote:
T
As for antimagic power source, HousePet's spell save sounds cool but it seems dwarfs will be the race most suitable for antimagic if we go this way. It sounds right and works right to have warrior/rogue invest in willpower for antimagic talents, only that the antimagic tree is disappointing even if you did invest in willpower


It also doesn't make much sense because spellsave is Willpower based, so you're back to pumping Wil to get value out of it, so why not just leave it as Mindpower...?

(Also, it makes it possible to pump Magic from equipment to get anti-magic power increase, which REALLY does not make sense.)

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 Post subject: Re: Buff antimagic
PostPosted: Sun Mar 27, 2016 7:04 am 
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Perspiring Physicist

Joined: Sun Sep 09, 2012 7:43 am
Posts: 5524
ibanix wrote:
(Also, it makes it possible to pump Magic from equipment to get anti-magic power increase, which REALLY does not make sense.)

Makes sense to me. :P

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 Post subject: Re: Buff antimagic
PostPosted: Sun Mar 27, 2016 7:21 am 
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Wyrmic

Joined: Thu May 23, 2013 12:25 am
Posts: 244
*facepalm*

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 Post subject: Re: Buff antimagic
PostPosted: Sun Mar 27, 2016 7:50 am 
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Halfling

Joined: Sun Mar 09, 2014 5:07 am
Posts: 118
The key is not really about how does the antimagic tree scales, but how does the talents function. With the way it is now, it does not do much good even if you stack mindpower. It might be ok-ish to wilders, but downright horrible for other chars that are also eligible for joining Zigur.

No one seems to think Silence has any problem so that's a pass. Oringinally I posted my comments to Resolve and Mana Clash only and I did not see Antimagic Shield as having major flaws (I would agree it is so-so though), but judging from the responses in this thread Antimagic Shield need tweaks. Not sure about having its absorbing power reduce by half because it is mainly a defensive talent IMO, if it is changed this way the defensive power will be greatly reduced but the damage to enemies won't be as great. But I feel the absorbing power should not be buffed further because a char stacking mindpower could achieve something like 60 points damage reduction for every attack (not to mentioned Tricky Defence), which is pretty significant already

I am thinking something along the line of this: As Antimagic Shield absorbs damage it builds certain stack of buffs, if the Antimagic Shield crumbles you consume the stacks to gain manaburn damage to your attack for x turns, and every attack you land reduce your equilibrium.


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 Post subject: Re: Buff antimagic
PostPosted: Sun Mar 27, 2016 2:14 pm 
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Wyrmic

Joined: Tue Apr 10, 2012 5:33 pm
Posts: 203
Scaling anti-magic powers with spell save looks like a very good idea for me. All melee fighters have access to combat veteran tree. Damn, even antimagic summoners get a nice reason to unlock their combat veteran. I like Dwarfs becoming the best antimages. Funny enough ogres and highers can be better antimages than cornacs because of their +spell save racial trees. So many new builds....

It makes perfect sense for me that having higher magic makes you more resistant to magic (else there would be no spell save from magic in the first place)

PS. I would love to have a choice of reward for zigur quest getting fungus for every antimagic user is rather boring. Solipsist's feedback generic tree would be a nice powerful substitute even if hard to explain... Something like permanent +10(or whatever that looks balanced) to every attribute is fun, to. +X levels to random wyrmic breath attack is interesting for every character with high strength and no good ranged options. Or free spell feedback\draconic body\draconic will prodigy. Or something else. Zigur could give many interesting things in place for fungus allowing interesting builds for a price


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 Post subject: Re: Buff antimagic
PostPosted: Mon Mar 28, 2016 2:11 am 
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Halfling

Joined: Sun Mar 09, 2014 5:07 am
Posts: 118
The way it is now favor classes that naturally invest in wil, scaling it with spellsave favors races(classes) that have racials(talents) that boost spellsave. Even if you did spent 60 points in wil you only gain 21 raw points in spellsave, which is vastly inferior to the spellsave gained by a warrior class spending 5 talent points in Spell Shield. If the objective is to make antimagic warrior/rogues builds more viable, substituting mindpower with spellsave just create a situation where warrior classes make much better Zigur follower than some wil-investing classes (like mindslayer) do, we do not actually end up better than we did before. I would support having antimagic scaling with either mindpower or spellsave, whichever is higher though

Giving alternative reward sounds interesting, but I always feel the reward should be something that have to do with antimagic, rather than some random mindpower related trees. Say, a prodigy-like passive which makes enemies' spellpower scale with their remaining mana, so your enemies have weaker offensives as you burn away their mana. The way manaburning damage works now is rather underwhelming, you could never burn away a boss's mana anyway so it often just works as a random elemental damage, scaling enemies' spellpower with their remaining mana could make manaburning damage works less like a all-or-nothing thing


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 Post subject: Re: Buff antimagic
PostPosted: Mon Mar 28, 2016 3:06 am 
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Sher'Tul Godslayer

Joined: Sat Apr 26, 2003 7:38 pm
Posts: 1970
Location: GMT-8:00
The second reward needs to be something that reduces equilibrium or antimagic shield is useless to almost everyone.

Feedback might actually work for that. I think the last talent reduces equilibrium and it seems to work pretty well at keeping secondary resources up on adventurers.

Call of the Wild might work, but not very well since it can't be used to recover equilibrium in combat and it's not a very good tree in general.

Mucus is probably out because it's a class tree.

Other than those I think it would need a custom tree or a virtual talent that gives some sort of equilibrium regeneration.

If the base antimagic tree had reliable equilibrium restoration that wasn't contingent on antimagic shield being down the Urkis reward would be less constrained.

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 Post subject: Re: Buff antimagic
PostPosted: Mon Mar 28, 2016 4:00 am 
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Halfling

Joined: Sun Mar 09, 2014 5:07 am
Posts: 118
I would say there should be more equilibrium regen in the antimagic tree itself, making equilibrium regen dependent on another rewarded tree just make the antimagic tree fails to stand on its own, unless the reward is something like a free prodigy.

I guess it would be more suitable to bake the equilibrium regen into Resolve, here's my two cents about the possible ways:
- Add passive equilibrium regen, or
- Buff the existing regen and make it applicable when Antimagic Shield is sustained, or
- Add some stacks of buff as you take elemental attacks, which lets you deal manaburn damage as you strike and reduce equilibrium as your attack lands


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 Post subject: Re: Buff antimagic
PostPosted: Mon Mar 28, 2016 12:37 pm 
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Wyrmic

Joined: Sun Nov 30, 2014 9:06 pm
Posts: 279
What about a talent sort of like stone alchemy that involved destroying arcane items or surrendering them to Zigur? I don't know if it would be better if destroying the item gave equilibrium/gold/energy directly, or if it gave you some item you could use (crystallized antimagic? Auntie Zig's Herbal Remedy?) vaguely like alchemist's gems. Pro: makes destroying magic items a basic part of being antimagic, instead of using them for Capitalism like everybody else; explains why ziguranth patrols are always carrying arcane items. Con: adds consumable items back to the game; everything but runes would weigh you the hell down.


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 Post subject: Re: Buff antimagic
PostPosted: Thu Mar 31, 2016 10:37 pm 
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Halfling

Joined: Tue Sep 22, 2015 11:53 pm
Posts: 108
Applying Aura of Silence to creatures with arcane abilities replenishes user Equilibrium.
Drained Mana/Vim/etc from Mana Clash replenishes user Equilibrium.

Or a simple 'Eschewing all arcane powers bring you closer to nature. Regenerate X equilibrium per turn per point spent in antimagic'.


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 Post subject: Re: Buff antimagic
PostPosted: Mon Apr 04, 2016 7:50 pm 
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Cornac

Joined: Sat Mar 28, 2015 4:07 pm
Posts: 43
Atarlost wrote:
Antimagic is going to feel absolutely terrible on any warrior or thief because they suffer badly from the equipment limitations and aren't building mindpower. A solipsist or doomed isn't even going to notice those limitations because their desired artifacts and egos aren't magic powered anyways and a cursed or mindslayer will still do far better than any fighter or rogue because they're at least boosting mindpower.

I should point out that even if your Rogue has psiblades and >100 Wil and Cun, antimagic is still not a good choice.

I feel like Antimagic is in a similar situation to shields, i.e. you need to take a prodigy just to make it as good as it ought to be to begin with.


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 Post subject: Re: Buff antimagic
PostPosted: Tue Apr 05, 2016 9:17 am 
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Cornac

Joined: Sun Dec 21, 2014 7:12 pm
Posts: 33
If we want Antimagic Shield to be equally useful for all races and classes, why not tie its absorption rate to character level ? Say, 1 point of damage per character level at level 1, 0,5 point of damage per character level at level 2-3, and 0,25 point of damage per character level at level 4-5 ? Or, in short, 1/1,5/2/2,25/2,5 per character level.

So, by the time you (on average) get it, at level 1 it'll stop 16 to 20 damage per attack. At level 5 and char level 50, it'll block 125 damage per attack - much better than the actual but nothing game-breaking. And the prodigy that works on it could even up that a bit. And voila - no need to worry about race, class or save-boosting skills. Just go through the game and it'll get better.

I'm even ok with Thalore taking it a bit on the chin on this, because their racial gives them all-resist, whereas Yeeks would love the faster defensive growth.


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