ToME: the Tales of Maj'Eyal

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 Post subject: Buff antimagic
PostPosted: Thu Mar 24, 2016 12:54 pm 
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Halfling

Joined: Sun Mar 09, 2014 5:07 am
Posts: 107
You cannot use arcane powered items or cast spells anymore if you go antimagic, that's a pretty huge sacrifice to make but the Antimagic tree cannot even be considered as decent.

- A non-Wilder class have no way to manage his equilibrium apart from the measly regen from Resolve, this renders Antimagic Shield rather ineffective unless you also take Fungus as well
- I have never seen anyone putting points into Mana Clash. A long cooldown, middle damage single-target talent does not seem worth putting points into. Even if you did build up your mindpower, seldom you are able to drain the mana bar of a random enemy in one hit. It is simply a waste of turns when used against anything above rare

So I suggest making these tweaks to the antimagic tree, it is not about making it powerful but just want to make it more worth taking:

Resolve: add a base equilibrium regen per turn
Mana Clash: As a T4 talent in a generic tree and the ultimate antimagic offense it should do more:
- Make it an AOE effect centered around your target (or reduce silence immunity of your target)
- Remove the equilibrium cost, make it generate equilibrium instead as you are destroying magic


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 Post subject: Re: Buff antimagic
PostPosted: Thu Mar 24, 2016 2:38 pm 
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Spiderkin

Joined: Mon Oct 09, 2006 7:47 pm
Posts: 566
The best way to regen equilibrium is with fungus that is available to AM characters. With ancestral life, regen become instant (and with fungal growth and with an instant healing infusion, you even gain a turn) and it regenerates equilibrium in a way that is largely sufficient to afford any antimagic talent. And if you need to use other gifts, you are either a wyrmic or an Oozemancer and you have other ways to regen equilibrium.

Anyway, mana clash could deserve a small boost, but is is already very powerful. It is a ranged attack that can be casted at a long distance, and that can completely disable an arcane boss. And I do invest in mana clash when going AM.
Not sure an AOE would be very useful. In general you want to mana clash some very specific dangerous spellcasters.
A lasting effect that reduces silence immunity could be more useful. But most bosses are not immune to silence AFAIK.
Maybe make it also increase paradox. It would be useful on a larger number of foes.


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 Post subject: Re: Buff antimagic
PostPosted: Fri Mar 25, 2016 3:07 am 
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Halfling

Joined: Sun Mar 09, 2014 5:07 am
Posts: 107
Indeed, a non-wilder class taking antimagic is forced to take fungus tree for equilibrium regen, and this had made antimagic shield not viable unless you take fungus as well. All trees should be able to stand on its own IMO, adding some more equilibrium regen in the antimagic tree itself would reduce the tree's reliance on fungus.

Agreed about your points regarding AOE and silence, but making mana clash increase paradox could inadvertently help the caster though, and seldom we could fully drain an arcane boss's resources with mana clash. Maybe the way out is to make the manaburn more powerful and to attach some other effect as well: mana clash also attaches a status effect to your target, every turn it must make a mental save, otherwise one magical effect (beneficial or not) would be removed and the target would suffer from additional manaburn damage


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 Post subject: Re: Buff antimagic
PostPosted: Fri Mar 25, 2016 7:11 am 
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Perspiring Physicist

Joined: Sun Sep 09, 2012 7:43 am
Posts: 5471
You can regenerate Equilibrium by just exiting a dungeon and going for a small hike.

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 Post subject: Re: Buff antimagic
PostPosted: Fri Mar 25, 2016 11:55 pm 
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Uruivellas

Joined: Sun May 19, 2013 1:58 am
Posts: 733
Resolve should give equilibrium regeneration on rest, just as a QoL buff.

Aura of Silence is great and should not be changed.

Antimagic Shield should block way more damage, like at least 1.5 times what it currently does.

Mana Clash could deactivate magical sustains or give spell fail chance for a few turns.

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 Post subject: Re: Buff antimagic
PostPosted: Fri Mar 25, 2016 11:58 pm 
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Uruivellas

Joined: Sun Jun 15, 2014 12:19 am
Posts: 947
Location: Yeehaw, pardner
I'm all for deactivating one or two magical sustains on mana clash.

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 Post subject: Re: Buff antimagic
PostPosted: Sat Mar 26, 2016 2:40 am 
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Perspiring Physicist

Joined: Sun Sep 09, 2012 7:43 am
Posts: 5471
If they have too many sustains active, it does that anyway.

I'm happy with adding passive Equil regen on rest to Resolve, but I'd wait until we see how that works with Antimagic Shield before changing it.

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 Post subject: Re: Buff antimagic
PostPosted: Sat Mar 26, 2016 6:02 am 
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Sher'Tul Godslayer

Joined: Sat Apr 26, 2003 7:38 pm
Posts: 1970
Location: GMT-8:00
Antimagic is going to feel absolutely terrible on any warrior or thief because they suffer badly from the equipment limitations and aren't building mindpower. A solipsist or doomed isn't even going to notice those limitations because their desired artifacts and egos aren't magic powered anyways and a cursed or mindslayer will still do far better than any fighter or rogue because they're at least boosting mindpower.

Pulling most of the mindpower multipliers out of the antimagic tree for pure skill scaling would probably help a lot in making it less of a shoe in for the robed mindpower classes and less useless for the warriors and rogues. Or possibly max(mindpower, physpower) if something absolutely needs a power to scale properly.

Also, I think maybe it gives fungus as a locked tree? If I'm remembering that right it should give it as an unlocked tree since it doesn't work on non-wilders without it. Possibly it doesn't work without it at all. I don't know since I can't stand to play summoners and the other wilders have fungus naturally.

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 Post subject: Re: Buff antimagic
PostPosted: Sat Mar 26, 2016 10:26 pm 
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Perspiring Physicist

Joined: Sun Sep 09, 2012 7:43 am
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I still think scaling it with spell save would be cool.

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 Post subject: Re: Buff antimagic
PostPosted: Sat Mar 26, 2016 11:52 pm 
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Wyrmic

Joined: Thu May 23, 2013 12:25 am
Posts: 244
The underlying assuming here is that antimagic should be a valid option for all (non-spellcasting) classes.

I haven't heard anyone provide a reason why this should be true.

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 Post subject: Re: Buff antimagic
PostPosted: Sun Mar 27, 2016 1:33 am 
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Wyrmic

Joined: Sun Nov 30, 2014 9:06 pm
Posts: 279
ibanix wrote:
The underlying assuming here is that antimagic should be a valid option for all (non-spellcasting) classes.

I haven't heard anyone provide a reason why this should be true.

I think it comes down to anti-magic being a big part of the game's lore, and something that not only takes some effort to get, but more effort to survive having. It could work for anti-magic to be a personal burden, requiring deep resolve to maintain (i.e. a challenge mode), but the lore tends to treat anti-magic users as powerful, dangerous (bigoted) witch-hunters. That implies the other end of the gamist spectrum, which is that anti-magic should be an alternate path, but not a lesser one. At the very least, trap options are problematic because they can frustrate new players -- imagine struggling through to, say, level twenty for the first time before taking anti-magic, losing your best gear, then dying.

I think ToME generally does pretty well at having major build paths be interesting, if not equally powerful. And for a roguelike having challenge modes is both traditional and fun, at least for some of its players. I guess the question comes down to how many people are having fun with antimagic in its current state, either as a tool against the vile magic-users or a challenge mode, versus how many people don't even consider it as a real choice because it doesn't interest them.


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 Post subject: Re: Buff antimagic
PostPosted: Sun Mar 27, 2016 1:53 am 
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Wyrmic

Joined: Thu May 23, 2013 12:25 am
Posts: 244
It's not really a big deal to get; it's an arena fight....

"Anti-magic" seems to be more "pro-nature" underneath; their answer to "don't use magic" is "use nature power!"... which doesn't fit well for classes like rogues and warriors, who are essentially neutral in that sense.

The lore in Embers (primal forest) also cements the idea that Zigur users are really nature lovers who also happen to hate and distrust magic. Sure, you can be a straight warrior who choose to forgo arcane powers, but when you don't have any innate nature or mind power, why would you do so?

If anti-magic is going to be a choice that gives you some benefit in return for forgoing arcane powers, then why isn't there a parallel choice to "pro-magic" that gives you some sort of spell powers and keeps you from using mind-power'd source items?

It's not an even split choice, and I don't think it should be equally useful for every class.

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 Post subject: Re: Buff antimagic
PostPosted: Sun Mar 27, 2016 2:52 am 
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Halfling

Joined: Sun Mar 09, 2014 5:07 am
Posts: 107
As for "not a big deal to get", indeed you get antimagic with just a fight in an arena (the orc corruptor is dangerous though), but more importantly you forgo using arcane powered items and casting spells as well. This causes a significant disadvantage to an antimagic character that should be duly rewarded, or if not, at least poses an interesting challenge, the current antimagic tree does neither. There could be a parallel choice to go "pro-magic" though, but it has never been made into the game while going antimagic is already an in-game mechanic, not to mention arcane powered items / escort spells are often superior to nature powered items so going pro-magic cannot even be considered as a challenge in the same degree

For me, going antimagic is never a choice about powergaming. I often go antimagic when playing with a non-wilder class, simply because I want to play as a berserker witch hunter, Zigur never forbids me joining them as well, so I consider everyone who vows to destroy magic is welcomed to go antimagic, no matter you are a mindpower-heavy class or not. However, the way antimagic works now is more like to punish non-wilder class joining Zigur.


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 Post subject: Re: Buff antimagic
PostPosted: Sun Mar 27, 2016 3:08 am 
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Wyrmic

Joined: Thu May 23, 2013 12:25 am
Posts: 244
Zigur's answer to magic is mindpower.

Everything in the game has a power source.

If it's not mindpower, than what is powering the abilities you get by going anti-magic? Being indoctrinated into the cult of magic-haters, and given new abilities through some sort of secret ritual, we assume. But what's behind those abilities? It's clearly not magic. Physical technique would be kind of strange - exactly what sort of physical ability or skill would work against magic?

This leaves you with Steam (lol, no); psionic forces and nature forces (mindpowers again); and the Zigur-specifc "arcane disrupting powers", which is again not actually explained.

So if you want to roleplay the berserker witch hunter, you'll need to explain what force is powering your new-found abilities.

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 Post subject: Re: Buff antimagic
PostPosted: Sun Mar 27, 2016 3:19 am 
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Wyrmic

Joined: Thu May 23, 2013 12:25 am
Posts: 244
Alllll this crap aside:

* I agree with Manaclash needing a *small* buff, but not as AoE. It's a single-target magic-user nuke,reason to go AM, as it should be able to make boss-level spellcasters way, way easier. Adding any of these are good options: Disable sustains; disrupt spellcasting for X turns; remove X beneficial magical effects; act as an inverse Timeless on the target (increase duration of detrimental effects, decrease duration of beneficial effects).

* One option for making Antimagic Shield more effective in general, while still retaining flavor, is to keep the current power level but have 50% of the damage be absorbed and 50% reflected back onto the attacker. Since the current max absorb rate is around 80 damage/attack (with maxed mindpower), this seems a reasonable way to switch some of the pure defense to offense without being overpowered.

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