Spacetime Folding tree should use Magic for learning talents

[bpat]

Currently you need Willpower to learn Spacetime Folding talents despite the talents scaling with spellpower over Willpower. I suggest changing it to require Magic or the higher stat between Magic and Willpower (similar to Combat Techniques requiring the higher of Strength or Dexterity). The second option is probably better for all the players who are used to building Willpower on Temporal Wardens to meet the requirements.

[Doctornull]

The other way to go would be to make one or two other Paradox Mage trees also require Willpower, so Spacetime Folding isn't such a standout.

[bpat]

The other way to go would be to make one or two other Paradox Mage trees also require Willpower, so Spacetime Folding isn't such a standout.

I don't agree with this because Magic makes sense since talents scale with it. Currently only two Temporal Warden talents scale with Willpower and paradox management is not an issue if you only use two sustains. Since Temporal Wardens don't have access to the Paradox Mastery talent to make Willpower actually good, I wouldn't get Willpower at all if I didn't need it for learning talents. I don't like the idea of forcing players to build a stat solely to learn core talents when the stat actually relevant to the tree in question so I'd rather have Magic be used for trees that scale with spellpower and Willpower be used for trees that scale with Willpower.

[Doctornull]

I don't agree with this because Magic makes sense since talents scale with it. Currently only two Temporal Warden talents scale with Willpower and paradox management is not an issue if you only use two sustains. Since Temporal Wardens don't have access to the Paradox Mastery talent to make Willpower actually good, I wouldn't get Willpower at all if I didn't need it for learning talents. I don't like the idea of forcing players to build a stat solely to learn core talents when the stat actually relevant to the tree in question so I'd rather have Magic be used for trees that scale with spellpower and Willpower be used for trees that scale with Willpower.

So, is there any reason to leave Willpower as the requirement for the three remaining non-Magic Chronomancy trees?

If not, I guess the way to go would be:
- Make all the current Willpower Chronomancy trees just scale with Magic (including the other Will Generic tree, Chronomancy itself).
- Make the advanced tree Paradox require Willpower (because Paradox Mastery is in it).

Hmm.


EDIT: I bring this up because currently the TW is basically able to ignore Magic while building Willpower until pretty late in the game. If you're going to move one of the TW's few really good trees from Will to Magic, then IMHO the best thing to do would be to just move the rest of the TW's trees over as well. This would obviate the need for Quantum Feed, so that talent could do something cool rather than what it does now.

[bpat]

I don't agree with this because Magic makes sense since talents scale with it. Currently only two Temporal Warden talents scale with Willpower and paradox management is not an issue if you only use two sustains. Since Temporal Wardens don't have access to the Paradox Mastery talent to make Willpower actually good, I wouldn't get Willpower at all if I didn't need it for learning talents. I don't like the idea of forcing players to build a stat solely to learn core talents when the stat actually relevant to the tree in question so I'd rather have Magic be used for trees that scale with spellpower and Willpower be used for trees that scale with Willpower.

So, is there any reason to leave Willpower as the requirement for the three remaining non-Magic Chronomancy trees?

If not, I guess the way to go would be:
- Make all the current Willpower Chronomancy trees just scale with Magic (including the other Will Generic tree, Chronomancy itself).
- Make the advanced tree Paradox require Willpower (because Paradox Mastery is in it).

Hmm.


EDIT: I bring this up because currently the TW is basically able to ignore Magic while building Willpower until pretty late in the game. If you're going to move one of the TW's few really good trees from Will to Magic, then IMHO the best thing to do would be to just move the rest of the TW's trees over as well. This would obviate the need for Quantum Feed, so that talent could do something cool rather than what it does now.

I agree that changing Paradox to require Willpower makes sense and Temporal Combat requiring Willpower is good. Spacetime Weaving and Chronomancy requiring Willpower is fine too, although Magic would make sense as well. The only one that should definitely require Willpower is Temporal Combat since its two sustains scale with it, the rest can probably be changed to magic if needed. Currently the only seriously problematic tree is Spacetime Folding since it actually scales with spellpower but some tinkering with the stat requirements for other trees could be interesting.

[Grakor456]

Adding my own two cents...one of the biggest problems with Temporal Wardens in general is their obnoxious stat spread. This is one of the main reasons why TWs are broken and melee is never used...DW melee requires a much larger stat investment than bows, and while TWs need Willpower (which has no purpose other than unlocks and Strength of Purpose/Quantum Feed) they'll always have a very hard time justifying going melee when just using a bow is so much easier on their already thinly-spread stat points.

I'd, personally, love to see Willpower completely removed from TW's necessary stats and see how that impacts their balance, and if it helps make melee more viable for them.

[HousePet]

Why should the required stat have any relation to what stat the talents scale with?
Changing the stat requirements just so you can exploit the way paradox sustains don't fail or anomoly, sounds like a pretty bad thing to do.
Thematically Chronomancy requires a lot of willpower to keep stretched spacetime from snapping back in your face.
If willpower is removed from the stat requirements, then the class has the same stats as Arcane Blade.

The Paradox category would make more sense if it required willpower.

[bpat]

Why should the required stat have any relation to what stat the talents scale with?
Changing the stat requirements just so you can exploit the way paradox sustains don't fail or anomoly, sounds like a pretty bad thing to do.
Thematically Chronomancy requires a lot of willpower to keep stretched spacetime from snapping back in your face.
If willpower is removed from the stat requirements, then the class has the same stats as Arcane Blade.

The Paradox category would make more sense if it required willpower.

I feel like categories should require stats that fit well with the tree, which, in the case of Spacetime Folding, is Magic. If Willpower scaling was added to some of the talents then Willpower would make sense, but Spacetime Folding is definitely a spellpower-based category at the moment. To get enough Willpower to sustain a third sustain (let's say 300 paradox) with no chance of failure, you'd need 100. Without Paradox Mastery, Willpower does far too little in influencing failure rates for it to be a good investment.

[HousePet]

Both stats fit with the category, since you would have silly high fail rate without the willpower.

(Incidently the talents are balanced with their baseline at either 200 or 300 paradox, can't remember which one. Since that amount of willpower is unachievable it means that a small fail chance is intended on chronomancy talents.)

[Grakor456]

Why should the required stat have any relation to what stat the talents scale with?
Changing the stat requirements just so you can exploit the way paradox sustains don't fail or anomoly, sounds like a pretty bad thing to do.
Thematically Chronomancy requires a lot of willpower to keep stretched spacetime from snapping back in your face.
If willpower is removed from the stat requirements, then the class has the same stats as Arcane Blade.

The Paradox category would make more sense if it required willpower.

Because sometimes lore needs to bow to gameplay balance. Furthermore, why does it matter if their stat spread would be the same as Arcane Blade? There are plenty of classes that have identical stat requirements to one another. It's certainly better than having one that is inferior in every conceivable way.

Ultimately, the Temporal Warden has the dubious honor of sharing the same spot of the Mindslayer: a class that is intended to be played one way, and then gets played in a wholly different way because of either changing game balance or just plain bad design. TWs are, by their description, supposed to be Chronomancer hybrids that use both archery and dual-wielding melee in conjunction to their time powers. That doesn't happen, at least in part because they require a staggering five of the six stats in the game. So, something has to give somewhere.

But, really, what the class needs is a complete overhaul so it's not just "archer with magic sustains."

[The Revanchist]

...lore needs to bow to gameplay balance..

WHAT?


I agree, though, that a rebuilding should be considered. They (probably) shouldn't be Archer, the magic variant!, they should be Tempora Warden, the temporal warden.

[Doctornull]

The only one that should definitely require Willpower is Temporal Combat since its two sustains scale with it, the rest can probably be changed to magic if needed. Currently the only seriously problematic tree is Spacetime Folding since it actually scales with spellpower but some tinkering with the stat requirements for other trees could be interesting.

I'm going to make Temporal Combat scale with Magic, and get rid of Quantum Feed entirely -- Quantum Feed only exists to allow a Will -> Magic conversion which is only necessary because nearly all the TW's magical talents require Willpower.

Ironically, removing one of the big 100 Paradox sustains will probably make the class less likely to fail a check, even with Willpower no longer a core stat.