Altering Linear Tree Progression

[Silvermoon]

Instead of requiring every skill in a tree be taken to unlock the next, why not have it require a certain number of skill points investing into the tree? Speed-bump skills are not fun (which is the motivation for my second draft of my Archery thread, but that's another subject).

Using Wild-gift / Cold drake aspect as an example (because it's in front of me)

-> Ice Claw - base skill. Requires tree unlocked to use
-> Icy Skin - tier two skill, requires one point in Ice Claw
-> Ice Wall - tier three skill, requires 3 points distributed between Ice Claw and Icy Skin
-> Ice Breath - tier four skill, requires 5 points distributed between Ice Claw, Icy Skin, and Ice Wall

Why this change? Because it minimizes forcing players to spend skill points in places they don't want them to be. In the above example, perhaps this Wyrmic character doesn't want to use Ice Wall or Icy Skin. In order to take Ice Breath, he has to. With this change, you could use Ice Claw at rank 5 to unlock the rest of the tree, and then take Icy Breath.

It is worth noting that this INCREASES the needed investment for top tier talents, and re-spec code would probably need to be tweaked.

[marvalis]

The rigid 5-level talent system has bugged me too :3.
But why increase the requirement for tier 5?

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skill level : class points you have to spend to unlock
1 : 0
2 : 1
3 : 2
4 : 3
5 : 4

So 4/5 ice claw should unlock Ice breath.
I think you are going to have to take it up to Darkgod for this one ;3.

[eronarn]

I'd definitely like something like this. There are way too many skills that I take and then don't really ever use.

[Miruko]

totally agree, i hate to waste points in imo useless skills, i'd like to see only level and stat as requirements, but also your way of generally spending points and not forcing people to learn unwanted skills is good.

[budswell]

But you are still forced to learn the tier one skill. Not so cool if it is the "speedhump"

[bricks]

This sounded cool at first, but then I realized

totally agree, i hate to waste points in imo useless skills

There just shouldn't be useless skills. Class points are so abundant that I don't really see this as much of an issue, though in general I see Wyrmic as a good reason to have a system like this, since so many of the skills aren't worth the single point.

[Silvermoon]

But you are still forced to learn the tier one skill. Not so cool if it is the "speedhump"

While this is true, I would point out that exceedingly few trees have a useless first skill.

[Final Master]

I think threads like this come along because players don't play creatively or are too rigid or too wild in their play of the game. I've been around since beta 3, which is a ... well a long time. I've seen and played with talents that really were pretty damn useless or simply didn't function. Now though, I'd be hard pressed to find a talent that I wouldn't want to use for any specific build. The fact that you can remove all talents at birth, and the last four talents spent at any time really makes the idea of forced builds or speedbumps rather erroneous.

The reason for requests like these are three fold: 1) You want to make your character exactly like you want ; which then results in 2) You wish break the balancing act the game goes through to keep things under control [weather consciously or not] ; 3) Take the most powerful talents so you make the 'most powerful' character.

I can whole heartedly understand point one, but I also understand the things that would have to happen to make that a reality and I don't think it's a good trade off.

I do like this initial idea, but I'm already able to do just about everything I want to do with just about any build I can think of; you just have to get creative with what you 'don't want' or, just completely ignore it. 1 class or generic point isn't going to make or break any character.

[Silvermoon]

The reason for requests like these are three fold: 1) You want to make your character exactly like you want

No, I just don't see any rational reason for the current setup. If you are REALLY FREAKING GOOD at a single skill in a category, it stands to reason that you're probably talented enough to take any skill in that category, as that's kinda the point of having skills in the same tree, and the entire point of having an adjustable mastery rating.

which then results in 2) You wish break the balancing act the game goes through to keep things under control [weather consciously or not] ;

Honestly, balance doesn't exist in the first place in a game that evolves as quickly as this does - nor does it generally exist AT ALL in Roguelikes, though this comes close.

3) Take the most powerful talents so you make the 'most powerful' character.

Yes, making literally everything except for tier 1 talents harder to get to clearly indicates that I want to take all the most powerful talents.


Edit: Sorry, that was harsh. Edited for tone. I'm not in the greatest of moods.

[Grey]

I think the idea has some merit, especially when you look at trees like the Anorithil hymns and circles. Generally everyone chooses one spell in the tree to max, but you can end up having to buy 3 other spells you don't want just to get there. Rather than forcing players down certain paths the game should be making the options more attractive and leaving it for the player to choose.

I'd go one further on this suggestion and say have only stat and level requirements for talents - no requirements on talents spent elsewhere in the tree. This really won't impact on balance, making only a couple of points difference here and there. The only restriction I'd say would be on the cursed items tree (which wouldn't be a problem if respec on it is removed).

I agree that tier 1 talents tend to be attractive anyway. There is a problem with certain talents seeming to be useless, but that's something that should be separately addressed. Ultimately an option like this is more about making your character more customised, without feeling railroaded down a particular build.

[Aquillion]

I think the idea has some merit, especially when you look at trees like the Anorithil hymns and circles. Generally everyone chooses one spell in the tree to max, but you can end up having to buy 3 other spells you don't want just to get there. Rather than forcing players down certain paths the game should be making the options more attractive and leaving it for the player to choose.

Honestly, perhaps those specific trees shouldn't have talent prerequisites. They don't have to -- the equivilant Mindslayer talents don't.

[eronarn]

I think the idea has some merit, especially when you look at trees like the Anorithil hymns and circles. Generally everyone chooses one spell in the tree to max, but you can end up having to buy 3 other spells you don't want just to get there. Rather than forcing players down certain paths the game should be making the options more attractive and leaving it for the player to choose.

Honestly, perhaps those specific trees shouldn't have talent prerequisites. They don't have to -- the equivilant Mindslayer talents don't.

More trees should have non-traditional layouts. Right now almost everything is 1->2->3->4 and it's both boring and bad for balance.

[Nagyhal]

I like it as it is now. While many skills don't make it into my regular rotation, there have been very few if any that I've found absolutely and irredeemably useless. I'll admit though that through MMOs I'm used to painstakingly devising situations where an awful skill can have decent utility, mostly because the surprise of such a skill has a weight in PvP beyond the generalized worth of the skill itself.

In ToME I suppose it's more Stun-type effects and resource screwups that bring me into using weird talents.

I feel the Wyrmic is a good counter-example as much as a correct example for what's been said. While having access to a lot of brash, reliably-damaging, but unfinessed attack options, the Wyrmic also knows a wide and mysterious away of defensive abilities which sit mostly in the middle of its talent trees. Any Wyrmic that gets its breath attacks will have all these abilities, and they function as one, really- like having a 5/5 in Wyrmic Oddness- a broad range of marginally applicable escape tactics that when taken all together and used with a bit of knack can make for a delightfully elusive character.

So, one of those odd abilities might sit out, on that third set of hotkeys you're not quite sure what you reconfigured to, utterly unused, until the moment comes where you're backed into a corner made of evil orcs, trapped between an orc and an orky place, there's all your good talents on cooldown and you find yourself thinking "How the hell..." until you press CTRL+M, and it's there.

I thrive on that kind of discovery- finding out a class's marginal advantages. Those little insults costing 1/5 talent points bring only the greater relish when I suss out how to make a pittance of utility from them.

Silvermoon's idea appeals despite all this. Capstone talents would do well to feel more of a reward. Even "wasting" three talent points in a bad tree to reach a powerful capstone at the end of it feels a bit like cheating in the current scheme. This change would also fit the current trend in build freedom. Though Bellowing Roar would still be unforgivable.

What Eronarn says would be good to bear in mind for anybody starting out making a ticks-all-boxes classic roguelike on the TE4 engine, but wanting to keep it fresh. You'd have long, exhaustive lists of talents for the wizard schools like Conjuration or Necromancy, requiring extensive and sequential investment; broad, meandering, organically-branching talent layouts for Nature; shallow and straightforward setups for the Fighter, and so forth. That's just ornament, though. I'm sure Eronarn had something rather more pragmatic in mind.

[bricks]

I think the idea has some merit, especially when you look at trees like the Anorithil hymns and circles. Generally everyone chooses one spell in the tree to max, but you can end up having to buy 3 other spells you don't want just to get there. Rather than forcing players down certain paths the game should be making the options more attractive and leaving it for the player to choose.

Honestly, perhaps those specific trees shouldn't have talent prerequisites. They don't have to -- the equivilant Mindslayer talents don't.

More trees should have non-traditional layouts. Right now almost everything is 1->2->3->4 and it's both boring and bad for balance.

I like the idea of dropping the tiered progression entirely for some of the generic trees mentioned here (let's see... Chants, Hymns, Glyphs, Circles, Hexes, Curses?).

[eronarn]

Probably it would be a good idea to have some standard 'alternative' layouts for talent trees before we get rid of 1>2>3>4.

Like:

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           C
         /
A -> B - D
         \
           E

could be a good one, where C/D/E are exclusive sustains or something.

Whereas:

Code: Select all

A ---> W
B ---> X
C ---> Y
D ---> Z

this is one talent tree where A/B/C/D can be taken separately, and a second (unlocked) one where W/X/Y/Z can't be taken until the respective talent has been maxed. Would be good for a tree representing an extension of another tree, like how alchemists get the two golem trees.