ToME: the Tales of Maj'Eyal

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PostPosted: Thu Apr 12, 2018 6:59 pm 
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Higher

Joined: Wed Feb 01, 2017 11:03 am
Posts: 73
Location: minmayland
minmay wrote:
darkgod wrote:
NPCs being smarter can never be a bad thing; I mean we don't want to play against target dummies do we?
If however being smarter exposes that they were too annoying/powerful/... but that it was unnoticed because they were stupid, the obvious solution is not to make them dumb but to make then less annoying/powerful/... :) That's more healthy in the long term :)
In a single-player, asymmetrical game, the point of enemy AI is to create interesting/fun tactical situations, not to survive or kill the player as efficiently as possible. AI optimized for the latter is usually really annoying and can actually be less interesting to fight.
If you're writing an AI for chess or Go or Super Smash Bros or another symmetrical game where the AI is filling the role of another human player, then yeah, generally you want to make it as smart as possible. For PvE games, this is not the case. If the imps in Doom aimed their fireballs to lead your movements, it would be annoying. If centaurs in DCSS kited you it would be god-awful (and if you don't believe me you can try Crawl 4.1).

Even the current AI produces countless situations that are awful gameplay due to the "smart" things it does. Enemies that hang out of range of your attacks are just annoying. Enemies that dodge projectiles mean that you want to change the default target of every projectile so that it's aimed behind the enemy instead of directly at them - this behaviour does nothing but slow down the game. Enemies avoiding using talents you're resistant to means that e.g. having high lightning or fire resistance against multihued drakes is actually bad if you have stun immunity but not disarm/blind immunity, because it makes them more likely to use their breaths that cause disarm/blind. Having higher resistances should never be bad!
These AI "improvements" only make these problems worse, and I notice the AI has been going in this direction for quite a few years. I think you will ultimately find that this approach reduces the depth of the game rather than increasing it, and is unhealthy in the long term.

I don't think the devs mind if people mod their versions. But don't you think that Shibari or Hachem are setting an example for you? They *clearly* state what they are doing. However, they avoid major gameplay design changes (I think). It's not that I think people *must* play this game the way it is designed, but rather that they need to know what you are doing when evaluating the statements you offer, the suggestions you make, the criticisms you make, and the dumps you post. Using exploits or multiple addons, I'm afraid, means that they might ignore you. And when I learned this is what you were doing, this is what I did.

But since you insist on some sort of nay-saying campaign of sabotage, and since your influence here (unjustified imo) appears to matter, I feel compelled to address this. Since these claims ought not to be made lightly, I spent a couple of tedious hours offline looking at character dumps still present in the vault and found this one which I would guess to be the one were you first made the mod: https://te4.org/characters/53875/tome/9 ... ba6e9930cf (qhial the level 50 Higher Alchemist by minmay Tales of Maj'Eyal: Age of Ascendancy 1.3.1)

Ah, so you've been doing this all along, ever since 1.3.1. And things make more sense now.

At around this time, minmay was complaining about multiple qols that weren't implemented yet, sight issues in particular. I don't remember the particulars, but my take at the time was that here's another player with a scumming tactic lobbying for changes. Perhaps the devs were short with you? I don't remember. But I also don't remember any sort of argument either, and you usually don't argue anything, but assert, whine and that take snarky snipes when you don't get what you want. Anyway, you probably nagged for a while, but then stopped. I assumed this meant you were playing the game, perhaps even adjusting your playstyle, perhaps improving it ... just like everybody else. But now I see that you decided to get what you want, be sneaky about the fact, and continue to pass yourself off as someone who is actually playing the game, and not a fork. And plenty of other players here manage to play just fine as far as I can see, and will continue doing so even when the AI changes go live!

If this was all you did, I wouldn't overly care, and I wouldn't say anything. I don't see what you gain out of doing this sort of thing. Why not just play at home? Or, if you disagree with the game designer, why not create your own variant? I'd prefer the latter, and perhaps many other people would as well. But you know what really gets me? It's the fact that you have duped me for over a year and a half. More than any other player, some devs have bent over backwards trying to understand your comments and criticisms. I was taken in by the quantity and diversity and speed of your character dumps that happened at about this time and thought that hey, even if this guy rubs me the wrong way, he deserves consideration. Had I known what you were doing, I would have been spared much subsequent grief.

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PostPosted: Thu Apr 12, 2018 10:07 pm 
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Halfling

Joined: Mon Nov 04, 2013 1:28 am
Posts: 107
Location: St.Petersburg, Russia
after all these AI posts, all i think about is that i want blockchain roguelike with monsters studying from every move ever taken in any game and occasionally playing at its best

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PostPosted: Thu Apr 12, 2018 10:23 pm 
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Wyrmic

Joined: Fri Sep 07, 2012 1:34 am
Posts: 257
I unfortunately no longer have the exact date I forked the Tales of Maj'Eyal module or publicly released the fork, because I lost the timestamps on the first 4 versions of zTome, but I know I started it prior to addon support (since otherwise I'd obviously have made it an addon from the start), so it would have been prior to b33. I do still have the timestamp for version 5 of zTome, which corresponded to b42 and was last modified on 8 September 2012. If you're curious, I've just uploaded that version here.
This is quite a bit earlier than 1.3.1.

If I have influence on ToME4's development, I must be doing a pretty poor job of using it, since the field of vision is still not square.


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PostPosted: Fri Apr 13, 2018 1:35 am 
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Wyrmic

Joined: Fri Jan 04, 2013 3:20 am
Posts: 288
minmay wrote:
I unfortunately no longer have the exact date I forked the Tales of Maj'Eyal module or publicly released the fork, because I lost the timestamps on the first 4 versions of zTome, but I know I started it prior to addon support (since otherwise I'd obviously have made it an addon from the start), so it would have been prior to b33. I do still have the timestamp for version 5 of zTome, which corresponded to b42 and was last modified on 8 September 2012. If you're curious, I've just uploaded that version here.
This is quite a bit earlier than 1.3.1.

If I have influence on ToME4's development, I must be doing a pretty poor job of using it, since the field of vision is still not square.
square field of vision...
I hadn't considered that
if field of vision should be square, then other radiuses should be square too
or better yet; ranged of abilities already have a shorter range if aimed diagonally than if aimed non-diagonally; why not just make movement take longer if its made diagonally instead of having square radiuses?
it'd actually significantly alter the gameplay, thats why; people would be afraid to move diagonally, unless of course players and npcs had 200% movespeed by default
but that'd be a serious change there
theres alotta stuff to consider if you wanna make diagonal movement take 100%*sqrt2 of a movement speed turn, just like it does in dwarf fortress


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PostPosted: Fri Apr 13, 2018 3:10 am 
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Wyrmic

Joined: Fri Sep 07, 2012 1:34 am
Posts: 257
Zeyphor wrote:
square field of vision...
I hadn't considered that
if field of vision should be square, then other radiuses should be square too
Yes. That's exactly what the addon does in fact. One nice thing about T-Engine is that it's built to make this very easy to do.
Zeyphor wrote:
or better yet; ranged of abilities already have a shorter range if aimed diagonally than if aimed non-diagonally; why not just make movement take longer if its made diagonally instead of having square radiuses?
This mostly makes the problem worse because movements are discrete. It really only works with continuous spaces and continuous time, not grids and discrete actions.
Zeyphor wrote:
I haven't put the thought into it yet, but would that be solved by hexagonal tiles?
Yes. In general, hex grids work better mechanically than square grids, but can be less intuitive to the end user. They also can't be displayed well in text mode, which is relevant for many other roguelikes, and you also can't make rectangles out of hex tiles, so if you want to represent a square building you have to settle for a parallelogram at best.


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PostPosted: Fri Apr 13, 2018 3:13 am 
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Wayist

Joined: Wed Jun 14, 2017 12:34 am
Posts: 16
Nerf and nerf talks are so inherently evil that it makes mommy and daddy fight. Save us darkgod! The mean person is taking away our movement infusions and it's making our reavers get kited. :x


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PostPosted: Fri Apr 13, 2018 8:00 am 
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Master of Eyal

Joined: Wed Jul 24, 2002 9:26 pm
Posts: 10230
Location: Angolwen
butthurt wrote:
Nerf and nerf talks are so inherently evil that it makes mommy and daddy fight. Save us darkgod! The mean person is taking away our movement infusions and it's making our reavers get kited. :x


Ahah :)
To be fair, inscriptions are in a dire need of an update though. Now why do people only see "nerfs" and not the buffs accompanying them I wonder, probably the way the human psyche works :) In any cases you can not take any single change and judge it, since every single change happens to the same game.
The only end result you should be concerned with are:
- does my current playstyle still work (if it wasnt an hugely obvious abuse ;) )
- does the update opens MORE ways to play

For example inscriptions, you may now find new ways to build a char than always having the same pair of inscriptions by the endgame. But if you want you should still be able to.
So maybe something is "nerfed" somewhere, but if other things are balanced in accord it is effectively not a nerf. It is only a nerf compared to other systems in the previous version but that's a fallacy to do that because you cant play one of the new system with the older ones.

So I'd say, just give it a try, see how it works, if you feel something is broken by all means report it in a clear, explicit and nice way. That's why alphas & betas exists :) Once forbidden cults is out there will probably start to be official public betas (as usual I never guaranty timeframes ;) ) for all to easily see, feel and report on :)

Example of a good report "Hey, feature FOO when used in way BAR in situation BAZ seems under/overpowered because I should(n't) be able to do XXX", example of a bad report "- FOO IS BROKEN -!"
But I'm sure this is obvious to all :)

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[tome] joylove: You can't just release an expansion like one would release a Kraken XD
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[tome] phantomfrettchen: your ability not to tease anyone is simply stunning ;)


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PostPosted: Fri Apr 13, 2018 11:44 am 
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Halfling

Joined: Fri Jan 01, 2016 2:23 pm
Posts: 109
Hey DG! Would you be interested in making a dev blog? :) I'd love to read your perspective on development of ToME, since it's mostly Shibari who's sitting on tomechat and discord acting as a messenger of the gods.

Also are Copper Mage and "PvP" arena thingy that you teased still coming someday? :D

@thread
Loving the balance, inscription and AI stuff, only hoping the release version doesn't break melee starts too much as it was reported it did in 1.6 alpha tests by some peoples.


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PostPosted: Fri Apr 13, 2018 12:19 pm 
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Master of Eyal

Joined: Wed Jul 24, 2002 9:26 pm
Posts: 10230
Location: Angolwen
Melee start is something being looked at a lot don't worry :) (but do test :) )

I'm easily reachable on tomechat (when I'm there) and gladly talk to people :) Also on IRC. I d'ont really use discord though, too full of meme and silliness for me (but I don't judge;) ) :)

As for copper mage, yes this is something I still want to do someday! Got some ideas stashed up, no promises as always!
The PvE-PvP thingie was meant to be in Forbidden Cults actually but I realized I have no way of preventing some possible abuse by bad people so I'm afraid I have to leave it out :<

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[tome] joylove: You can't just release an expansion like one would release a Kraken XD
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[tome] phantomfrettchen: your ability not to tease anyone is simply stunning ;)


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PostPosted: Fri Apr 13, 2018 12:30 pm 
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Thalore

Joined: Sun Mar 09, 2014 5:07 am
Posts: 134
minmay wrote:
the point of enemy AI is to create interesting/fun tactical situations, not to survive or kill the player as efficiently as possible


Then I have a question: What constitutes interesting/fun tactical situations, and can they be defined comprehensively?

I think the right approach would be to develop a powerful AI first, let it creates fun/tactical situations, then we tune down annoying behavior with alpha and beta tests

butthurt wrote:
Hate it. All of it. Change scares me, it will probably destroy everything I ever cared about and I'll be playing 1.5.5 forever for sure.

I really despise nerfs overall, and talks about changing debuffs make me unconfortable and butthurt.


Do remember nerfs impact you in two ways. While you are dishing out the status effects, you receives status effects as well. I can clearly see how some status effect (especially the stuns) now could turn some new players off.

As long as the nerfs (and with them the buffs) do not make the game a boring chore (unless you derive fun from ToME only from stunning your enemies), I look forward to changes. There had not been a fundamental change to ToME for years, as a player I want new things in the game. Major changes are always controversial in nature, but they are needed to keep the game's vitality. Unpopular changes can be rolled back, but if the devs decide to stay in comfort zone the game would eventually be forgotten as a relic.


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PostPosted: Fri Apr 13, 2018 12:41 pm 
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Wyrmic

Joined: Fri Jan 04, 2013 3:20 am
Posts: 288
minmay wrote:
Zeyphor wrote:
I haven't put the thought into it yet, but would that be solved by hexagonal tiles?
Yes. In general, hex grids work better mechanically than square grids, but can be less intuitive to the end user. They also can't be displayed well in text mode, which is relevant for many other roguelikes, and you also can't make rectangles out of hex tiles, so if you want to represent a square building you have to settle for a parallelogram at best.
well, after having put thought into it, within the few minutes that was there before I'd edited it out, I'd thought that moving with the directional keys wouldn't be so easy for left and right anymore

after putting even more thought into it, I came up with this:

the movement keys would be:
up(8)
down(2)
up+left(8+4)
down+left(2+4)
up+right(8+6)
down+right(2+6)
and 5 would still skip a turn

but left and right(4 and 6) by themselves wouldn't do anything

I'd rather not do hex grids, though; this isn't HoMMIII where you mainly move by clicking
this is an RPG where you mainly move with the keyboard


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PostPosted: Fri Apr 13, 2018 10:35 pm 
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Wyrmic

Joined: Fri Sep 07, 2012 1:34 am
Posts: 257
Oh yes, I wouldn't want to convert ToME4 (or pretty much any other existing game) to use a hex grid. It's not that big of an improvement over a Chebyshev grid and it would be a huge amount of work.


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PostPosted: Fri Apr 13, 2018 11:00 pm 
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Wayist

Joined: Wed Jun 14, 2017 12:34 am
Posts: 16
darkgod wrote:
butthurt wrote:
Nerf and nerf talks are so inherently evil that it makes mommy and daddy fight. Save us darkgod! The mean person is taking away our movement infusions and it's making our reavers get kited. :x


*demonic logic of the fearscape*




Your satanic magic of eloquence have convinced me. Will be playing it nonstop and donating money for more future nerfs.



anonymous000 wrote:
butthurt wrote:
Hate it. All of it. Change scares me, it will probably destroy everything I ever cared about and I'll be playing 1.5.5 forever for sure.

I really despise nerfs overall, and talks about changing debuffs make me unconfortable and butthurt.


Do remember nerfs impact you in two ways. While you are dishing out the status effects, you receives status effects as well. I can clearly see how some status effect (especially the stuns) now could turn some new players off.




That's what I love, reason being that both the PC and the NPC's follow the same rules to a certain extent. I mean, to a point, even Athamaton and Linanill can get trashed and severely crippled by debuffs. Can't think of any other game that allows you to trash high level demi god bosses with debuffs like that, even if you get trashed in return. :)


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PostPosted: Sat Apr 14, 2018 1:16 am 
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Archmage

Joined: Mon Mar 28, 2011 12:42 pm
Posts: 367
Divinity original sin 2. Very different but meets your criterion.

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PostPosted: Sat Apr 14, 2018 4:53 pm 
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Halfling

Joined: Fri Jan 01, 2016 2:23 pm
Posts: 109
darkgod wrote:
The PvE-PvP thingie was meant to be in Forbidden Cults actually but I realized I have no way of preventing some possible abuse by bad people so I'm afraid I have to leave it out :<

Awh :( I see. Very sad, it sounded super cool. Hopefully one day someone will discover anti-abuse enchantments that will make it possible to be included in the game :) thanks a ton for reply! Will be getting Cults on day one.


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