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What Even Is The Point Of The OP Overworld Patrols?
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Author:  Whiskiz [ Mon Dec 18, 2017 4:58 am ]
Post subject:  What Even Is The Point Of The OP Overworld Patrols?

Especially the orc ones in far east.

I just came out of "Briaghs Lair" down in the (SE) corner and there was a patrol in front me blocking me from the rest of the map. All i could do was backup into the corner and after roughly 10 turns it of course got up there and leisurely walked into me while i was cornered. Is it just me or are the orc patrols alot more aggressive too, alot less random?

But sweet, i started near the exit so i manage to sprint and get out.

I then go to head down and get out of that little dead-end and another orc patrol appears right in front of me, in front of Briaghs Lair.

Long story short same thing happens, only i'm not near the exit when i go into the combat map and get killed by a horde of orcs.

I lost 1 (could've and should've been 2) life(s) when there was absolutely nothing i could do about it. No counterplay, no strategy, no depth, no dying because i deserved it which is what usually happens and makes a game like this awesome.

Orc patrol in front of you in a dead end you were near for main story quest? You lose a life. Another spawns? Lose another one.

Wut?

And for what exactly? Is the idea behind them to kinda make the overworld interesting? Give it some sort of mechanic? So it's maybe not boring? Something with insanely high risk even though it has low reward? (some exp and rando items you can't even equip majority of the time)

I get those ideas but i'd like to ask does the overworld really need it? Does the overworld *have* to have something going on with it? With all the many dangerous places to enter, rares/elites/bosses waiting to destroy you, extra areas that are extra hard, does the overworld have to have some OP danger too? Does it really need some random tedious and meaningless busy work? Does that really enhance the game at all?

I don't think there is anything wrong with the overworld just being where you get around the world. A safe place, one of very few.

This is also coming from someone who just cleared that "overpowered multi hue wyrm" vault out (Nightmare, would have started higher but need to unlock first apparently) with a lvl 38 Rogue after having played the game for a week and coming across it (even getting up to it) for the first time. That was great, because although it seems OP, it was optional. You could run and never look back. Instead of having that vault thrown in front of your face 200 times throughout the game.

I also shouldn't even need to bother to explain the idea against the insanely high risk relatively low reward aspect of it.

I get needing to make it OP so you can't farm gear/exp, too, but then have no combat instead of broken combat that chases you around or even just make it completely optional. Again, you don't need busy work on the overworld, it was fine as is.

And isn't that what the whole "Farportal" thing is for?..

And apart from those i just don't get it. It just seems like a tedious mechanic that makes you take 10 times as long to get around on the world map, for no reason, with no benefit, that has nothing to do with skill or anything else.

Also many times i've had patrols where i need to go, so i've had to randomly go elswhere and skip a ton of turns making it take even more than 10 times as long.

What a great, strategically challenging, complex, rewarding and fulfilling mechanic....

Bit of a let-down after seeing the awesome job done with the rest of the game in terms of strategy challenge complexity rewards and general depth, especially the different classes.

Then this random, simple, broken, insta-gib tedious thing gets tacked on onto the open world out of left field that you have to repeatedly avoid and/or get insta-gibbed by every so often.

Wut?..

P.S i saw there was a mod to make overworld patrols optional but i usually like to play with no/minimal mods and no exploits (NPC drowning at the start of the game, really guys? :P) so i'm only using talent planner and wanting to see how i go/how far i get without any "quality of life" or balance mods. Hate having to resort to mods to fix something, or alter the game in any way for any reason.

Author:  Cathbald [ Mon Dec 18, 2017 7:46 am ]
Post subject:  Re: What Even Is The Point Of The OP Overworld Patrols?

Whiskiz wrote:
... when there was absolutely nothing i could do about it. No counterplay, no strategy, no depth, no dying because i deserved it which is what usually happens and makes a game like this awesome.


Counterplay : pop a movement infusion before entering world map, pop RoR after getting ambushed and stay out of sight until you're yanked out, pop movement infusion after getting ambushed and race to the exit.
You don't even have the excuse of being debuffed and not being able to exit once you're in the east because you got relentless pursuit from Aeryn. Mobility is key, always, and you should have movement infusion + skills that help you reach the exit, otherwise you - up your build.

Whiskiz wrote:
Also many times i've had patrols where i need to go, so i've had to randomly go elswhere and skip a ton of turns making it take even more than 10 times as long.


Generally if a patrol is where I need to go and I've finished the t2s I just go where I want and kill them/flee the level if they decide to aggro. As you say it takes a long time to go around so it's far better to just go through.

Whiskiz wrote:
This is also coming from someone who just cleared that "overpowered multi hue wyrm" vault out (Nightmare, would have started higher but need to unlock first apparently) with a lvl 38 Rogue after having played the game for a week and coming across it (even getting up to it) for the first time


Congratulations, you play nightmare right away and have cleared the op vault. Now, start to find counterplay about patrols because they exist and learn how to take them on because it's far from impossible.

Author:  Whiskiz [ Mon Dec 18, 2017 9:45 am ]
Post subject:  Re: What Even Is The Point Of The OP Overworld Patrols?

Cathbald wrote:
Whiskiz wrote:
... when there was absolutely nothing i could do about it. No counterplay, no strategy, no depth, no dying because i deserved it which is what usually happens and makes a game like this awesome.


Counterplay : pop a movement infusion before entering world map, pop RoR after getting ambushed and stay out of sight until you're yanked out, pop movement infusion after getting ambushed and race to the exit.
You don't even have the excuse of being debuffed and not being able to exit once you're in the east because you got relentless pursuit from Aeryn. Mobility is key, always, and you should have movement infusion + skills that help you reach the exit, otherwise you - up your build.

Whiskiz wrote:
Also many times i've had patrols where i need to go, so i've had to randomly go elswhere and skip a ton of turns making it take even more than 10 times as long.


Generally if a patrol is where I need to go and I've finished the t2s I just go where I want and kill them/flee the level if they decide to aggro. As you say it takes a long time to go around so it's far better to just go through.

Whiskiz wrote:
This is also coming from someone who just cleared that "overpowered multi hue wyrm" vault out (Nightmare, would have started higher but need to unlock first apparently) with a lvl 38 Rogue after having played the game for a week and coming across it (even getting up to it) for the first time


Congratulations, you play nightmare right away and have cleared the op vault. Now, start to find counterplay about patrols because they exist and learn how to take them on because it's far from impossible.


Counterplay is to abuse inscriptions and rod of recall? i do not think counterplay means what you think counterplay means.

Pop a move speed inscription whenever i enter the world map, just in case? i doubt it's even intended.

The second time an enemy spawned in my vision from the start so i probably wouldn't have survived anyway when trying to Rod of Recall. You don't always spawn in unseen. Also if you're able to just negate it like that and need to - as i said, what's even the point of them being in the game?

If you read my post properly before sharing your, insights, you would have seen i was able to pop my move speed inscription the first time to get to the exit and escape because i started near it, but the second time i spawned on the opposite side as per usual so i couldn't quite make it with move speed inscript that time.

The only counterplay options you offered were abusing inscriptions, popping rod of recall (which i may not have even survived because i spawned with enemy in vision) or the basic concept of using a move speed inscription during the fight to escape which i did the first time, but said was unable to the second time, since i was so far away from the exit.

Congratulations.

Author:  Cathbald [ Mon Dec 18, 2017 9:52 am ]
Post subject:  Re: What Even Is The Point Of The OP Overworld Patrols?

I also said I fight them because they're not impossible to fight but gave you pointers on how to avoid them since you seem to think they're invincible, which they're not.

Fighting them is the same as fighting everything else in the game, stay out of LoS, debuff, run when needed.

You said it was possible to escape the OP wyrm if needed, it's also possible to escape the ambushes :)

And the movement infusion buff works on world map, that's what I was saying if you needed help to avoid them

Author:  Whiskiz [ Mon Dec 18, 2017 9:57 am ]
Post subject:  Re: What Even Is The Point Of The OP Overworld Patrols?

They either are impossible to fight for a class who's main and unique strength is fairly negated even when building for it (Rogues stealth, even at 1.7 category with maxed cunning, cun on stats and invis gear)

Or you haven't faced the orc patrol i had, there was like 4 or 5 of them and at least one was a summoner/necromancer that made another like 3 or 4.

I was also lvl 40 - 45 they were lvl 65 - 70 elites/rares.

No way.

The reason it's possible to escape the Wyrm vault, is because you aren't stuck in a little 2x4 box and you can instantly and perma LoS the room they are in with mobility, instead of relying on a couple of random trees and the only place you can go is a few squares in any direction befire hitting the border, and being unable to leave level from DoTs and CCs.

Big, big difference.

If move speed inscript works on world map that'd probably help, but still doesn't explain why patrols are even there in the first place, especially with farportals being a thing.

Author:  Cathbald [ Mon Dec 18, 2017 10:02 am ]
Post subject:  Re: What Even Is The Point Of The OP Overworld Patrols?

Enemies will always be higher level than you end game, it's not relevant.

Stealth is a damage tool, not a defensive one.

Orc patrol usually have 2-4 necro/summoner and yes some of them are rares. But you are at a point in the game where your important skills are maxed and you have 1 or 2 prodigies. You have all the tools you need, the only problem is that your gear might be lacking

Author:  Cathbald [ Mon Dec 18, 2017 10:05 am ]
Post subject:  Re: What Even Is The Point Of The OP Overworld Patrols?

Whiskiz wrote:
... being unable to leave level from DoTs and CCs


As i said, if you're in the east you have relentless pursuit and cc are not an excuse

Author:  Kruzifixxion [ Mon Dec 18, 2017 10:11 am ]
Post subject:  Re: What Even Is The Point Of The OP Overworld Patrols?

Patrols do have a point it's to kill people who don't know how to avoid them, plus most people don't even know how to avoid them in the first place cuz they use cheat addon (zonmbinus) which gives them an option to not fight. And it DOES take skill to avoid them. If it didn't no one would die to them.

Patrols aren't easy and they're deadly when you're heading to braighs

Btw using an infusion isn't abusing it, they're meant to be used. Just movement in gates and make it towards the water to the west & enter the uw zone. Rest and movement again, now run till your movement is off cd and enter either rakshor or gorbat and movement from there to braighs. Just never let them trap you or you'll most likely die. If you ever get in a bad position lead them back to gates and the guards will help you.

But after that you'll be able to kill patrols in a few turns

Author:  Whiskiz [ Mon Dec 18, 2017 10:15 am ]
Post subject:  Re: What Even Is The Point Of The OP Overworld Patrols?

I really don't think you know what you're talking about Cathbald:

"As i said, if you're in the east you have relentless pursuit and cc are not an excuse"

RP has a 50 turn CD, and takes a turn. You use it, lose your turn and debuffs come off next turn. You are then debuffed again because you are stuck in a 2x4 patrol battleground with everything that just debuffed a bit ago.

"Orc patrol usually have 2-4 necro/summoner and yes some of them are rares. But you are at a point in the game where your important skills are maxed and you have 1 or 2 prodigies. You have all the tools you need, the only problem is that your gear might be lacking"

I disagree that i have all the tools i need as lvl 40 - 45 to take on 4 - 5 elites/rares lvl 65 - 70 and all there summons, ranged/magic attacks, buffs and debuffs etc, when again you are fighting in a small 2x4. Nor do i have all the resources for all that in one fight.

"Stealth is a damage tool, not a defensive one. "

Who says, besides you? Stealth is a fantastic versatile tool. Fight getting hairy, do you have enough sustain to stay longer? If yes, pop it and get 5 relatively free turns of damage and some CD on your skills. If no, get 5 relatively free turns to make an escape to rest up and re-engage. Or pop at the start of the fight to maybe insta-gib *one* big bad thing in the fight. Stealth has multiple uses at multiple stages of the fight and as mentioned the combat one only lasts 5 turns and the intial one attack. You tell me how stealth takes all that out in 6 odd turns, aha....

"Enemies will always be higher level than you end game, it's not relevant."

I disagree, especially when they're 50% higher lvl rare/elites, can summon more enemies and there is nowhere to go but fight and kill everything in one long fight.

"Fighting them is the same as fighting everything else in the game, stay out of LoS, debuff, run when needed."

Run where exactly? Derp...

Author:  dadito [ Mon Dec 18, 2017 10:43 am ]
Post subject:  Re: What Even Is The Point Of The OP Overworld Patrols?

Relentless is instant

Also cathbald is probably one of the best players in the game so I think he knows what he's talking about

Author:  Whiskiz [ Mon Dec 18, 2017 12:00 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: What Even Is The Point Of The OP Overworld Patrols?

You're right RP is instant, i must have mistaken it for another skill, my bad.

The rest though still stands.

I like how the misinformation is commented on and pointed out, but the valid points and rest of the post are completely ignored ;)

I did use RP after i "couldn't change level while ___" but i guess it only lowered the DoTs/CCs then.

Because remember RP doesn't instantly completely clear you of all status effects, it's strength is based off your saves but even though i have green level saves and one blue, if the enemies are much higher level and rare/elite and so higher stats, you aren't going to completely remove an 11 turn burn/poison/CC basically.

My gear/damage isn't an issue, too, with 250% crit damage and 98% crit chance as well as 2 "fixedart"/yellow T3 and T5 daggers as well as the rest of the gear.

Had crits over 2K and most bosses last maybe 3 or 4 hits, it's just fighting all that in one long fight and taking so many hits and debuffs from half of it being ranged, while destroying each individual thing, in melee, as squishy rogue, trying to get to each next enemy under constant fire, with nowhere to run or hide or escape etc.

Also, move speed inscript applies to you on overworld, but you apparently can't use it on the world? I wonder if that's intended or not. Bit weird popping that in somewhere and hoping for the best, hoping it lasts long enough so you won't get trapped etc, without having to area hop and move speed pop. Don't think that's intended counterplay nor is that any less tedious than the actual patrols themselves, ironically, lol.

Author:  Micbran [ Mon Dec 18, 2017 3:19 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: What Even Is The Point Of The OP Overworld Patrols?

How is popping one movement Infusion before exiting to world map more tedious than dodge dancing 3 orc patrols? If you want to area hop go for it, no one said you have to. If you really want to make it tedious, you could:
    Swap to a bunch of movement speed gear
    Swap to eden’s guile
    Apply whatever GS buffs and other movement speed buffs you have
    Pop movement
    Arrive in destination
    Swap everything back

Stealth is literally just shadowdance but yeah, it can be used defensively (can’t remmeber if it makes you invis or actually invis, if the former it’s shit because you can still be detected).

Honestly max invis gear might be why you’re having trouble. That’s a lot of stuff to give up for a shitty category that is made good by one and a half talents (shadow strike and shadow dance).

Author:  Delmuir [ Mon Dec 18, 2017 6:25 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: What Even Is The Point Of The OP Overworld Patrols?

Whiskiz... it is clear that you've either not mastered the mechanics of the game effectively, or for some reason you don't want to and instead want to argue against design as being "wrong" in some sense.

I haven't been killed by an orc patrol in like two years, and I'm not a great player, just a competent one. More so, I almost NEVER run.

You appear to be over-relying on stealth, at the expense of survivability in other situations. Maybe not, but it appears that way, and one of the weaknesses you've created is susceptibility to patrols.

The reality is that you need to learn and adapt, and people are generously offering to help you but you seem intent on arguing from the defeatist contrarian position.

The overworld patrols are notorious in this game for forcing a steep learning curve, but they are eminently manageable.

Author:  Arcvasti [ Mon Dec 18, 2017 7:17 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: What Even Is The Point Of The OP Overworld Patrols?

Patrols are pretty brutal if you run into them too early, especially if you're eligible for getting attacked by antimagic people. At some point though, the only their only purpose is to provide you with opportunities to scum gear without commiting to a farportal run. Orc patrols aren't nearly as bad, since they're only about as strong as the normal encounters you're running into. I suspect that you may be overestimating how good Stealth is on Nightmare. Nightmare gives enemies extra talent levels and plenty of enemies have Heightened Senses, which gives them bonuses to stealth perception. I never found Stealth to be good for anything besides guaranteeing that Shadowstepping some mook would always kill them.

I'd totally be fine with removing patrols, since they're either A) Super deadly, B) Trivially Avoidable or C) Loot pinatas, none of which are really a good thing.

Author:  Coldbringer [ Tue Dec 19, 2017 1:26 am ]
Post subject:  Re: What Even Is The Point Of The OP Overworld Patrols?

Either your gear and infusions are really sub par or your battle strategies need adjustment.

I'm by no means an expert at this game but I have little to no problem clearing orc patrols in NM.

You should be decked out in t4 to t5 artifacts and randarts at this point. Infusions should be wild-physical, movement, then your choice of heals and shielding or heroism. Perhaps even a teleportation rune. Or another item that gives you teleporting. A physical damage resist torque can work wonders vs all the orc melees. The pyros and cryomancers are problematic but once you learn what skills they use, they are manageable.

Like others have said, use the trees for blocking the line of sight, burn down the ones closest to you quickly. Reposition, remove negative statuses & heal, regain cooling down abilities, repeat.

I'm not sure which prodigies you chose, but Windblade is amazing here, as is Giant Leap.

Which specific orc types or skills are causing you the biggest problems?

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