ToME: the Tales of Maj'Eyal

Everything about ToME
It is currently Sat Oct 20, 2018 9:32 am

All times are UTC




Post new topic Reply to topic  [ 40 posts ]  Go to page Previous  1, 2, 3
Author Message
PostPosted: Tue Dec 26, 2017 9:35 pm 
Offline
Wayist

Joined: Mon Apr 17, 2017 2:27 pm
Posts: 25
To rephrase this discussion somewhat - does anyone actually think patrols add anything to the game?


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Wed Dec 27, 2017 7:25 pm 
Offline
Archmage

Joined: Mon Dec 15, 2014 10:08 pm
Posts: 384
They add challenge. And fear. My overpowered tinker classes doing battle with the overpowered EoR patrols have been more exciting than the final battle. That's the theme of the game - The world at war, constant danger. Whether it's a massive rare/unique/boss with deadly abilities or a patrol full of elites and rares, you could get taken out at any time. That risk makes the game more rewarding. Playing other games where you simply reload your save after dying or suffer minor death penalties is not as exciting. Where you mow down trash mobs repeatedly like they're nothing, just animated figures to click on for loot and xp.

This is a roguelike. You're supposed to be tested, and die often. Up against often times overwhelming odds. When you open the chat panel in game you see this with all the other players dying in all manner of ways. I've raged against what I felt were unfair/unbalanced game mechanics. But I keep coming back for more punishment. And always tried to learn from my deaths what I could do better, do differently, get feedback from more experienced & skillful players. You need a certain level of stubbornness and masochism to truly enjoy roguelikes.

get the mod for patrols, or don't. It's there.

_________________
"You could skip it, i think it drops 0 xp and 1 copper [at most], you are better off selling oxygen to beggars to become rich."


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Sat Dec 30, 2017 4:03 am 
Offline
Sher'Tul Godslayer

Joined: Thu Jan 23, 2003 8:13 pm
Posts: 1563
Location: A shallow water area south of Bree
szekrenyer wrote:
Avoid this. Fun.

Ah, yes, I can sympathize; I too have frequently had to resort to dancing around the observatory yelling, "You durn kids git away from my front door!" before going in. Which, as you so aptly observe, adds "fun" and "challenge" to the game. :roll:

Coldbringer wrote:
szekrenyer I think you can pop back into that zone, the patrols will move or reset when you come back out. IIRC

Not in my experience. Getting trapped at the Gorbat Pride entrance in exactly this manner is what led me to add orc patrols to Opt-in Adventurers Parties. In fact, I was assuming that szekrenyer believed as you did and was coming out of the observatory into the scene depicted.

Coldbringer wrote:
If you can't beat patrols, how are you going beat the prides, high peak, and the final bosses? All of which are much harder.

All of which you don't have to deal with until you're ready for them and are actively seeking them out. None of which can ambush you around a corner. (And all of which, to repeat an earlier point, have levels large enough that the teleport-out strategy is still viable. That's a point you don't seem to acknowledge, in fact: a lot of the usual roguelike survival strategies you've been suggesting above, and that you keep saying we need to come talk to the experts here to learn, simply don't work in the ambush zone because of its small size, relatively high hostile population density and poor availability of effective cover.)

[And as a matter of full disclosure, the late game does tend to be the point at which I start losing interest in a character, because honestly, who needs that kind of stress?]

Coldbringer wrote:
Play on normal-adventure with the stronger Race/Class combos,

Already doing that. (And I guess the weaker race/class combos are just SOL?)

Coldbringer wrote:
farm all the zones.

Already doing that.

Coldbringer wrote:
Experiment with builds and equipment, gain experience.

Been doing that for a while now, thanks.

Coldbringer wrote:
vault items,

See, here again, if you're having to resort to tricks like this to deal with patrols, that should be a big hint that something is wrong with this equation.

Quidix wrote:
To rephrase this discussion somewhat - does anyone actually think patrols add anything to the game?

Coldbringer wrote:
They add challenge. And fear.

Yeees, I've noticed that "challenge" tends to mean roughly "ulcer-inducing nightmare" `round these parts (except for the cases when it means something more like "tedious micro-managing" or "high-pressure tedium"). And unless you're playing a horror game, I don't think "fear" is a good thing to be getting out of a game. :?

Coldbringer wrote:
I stand by what I said. No condescension intended. If you are reasonably well geared, have a good build, and use smart tactics (what this game is all about), you should be crushing the orc patrols on sub-insane difficulty levels.

And I stand by what I said: orc patrols are death traps. You're just that good.

_________________
"Blessed are the yeeks, for they shall inherit Arda..."


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Sun Dec 31, 2017 12:41 am 
Offline
Perspiring Physicist

Joined: Sun Sep 09, 2012 7:43 am
Posts: 5759
Orc patrols would be good loot if the endgame didn't throw loot at you like confetti. So they aren't totally unrewarding, but its slight.

On normal adventurer I only needed a decent set of inscriptions to get past them, regardless of build. You should always have a decent set of inscriptions.
Also, notice I said 'get past them', not defeat them. Teleport with its minimum range meant that the only possible tiles are the opposite side of the ambush, frequently next to the exit. You don't have to defeat them, as getting past them also deletes the patrol.

_________________
My feedback meter decays into coding. Give me feedback and I make mods.


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject:
PostPosted: Mon Jan 01, 2018 6:47 am 
Offline
Archmage

Joined: Mon Dec 15, 2014 10:08 pm
Posts: 384
In the main campaign you could farm them for gold to get to 4,000 for another merchant randart if you were close to having enough. Their tier 5 purple gear can upgrade some slots for you. Although the orc patrols seem to drop far less equipment than the Zigur patrols and Adventurer parties did.

In Embers of Rage you need to farm them for consumables to make the tinker Artifacts, you probably won't get enough Voratun and Goldleaf through just going through the zones.

Also, this IS partially a horror game. It has literal and figurative horrors frequently occuring! :lol: :twisted:
When you've got 3 inner demons chasing you across the level and everything is on cooldown and your health is hanging by a thread... that's great horror!

_________________
"You could skip it, i think it drops 0 xp and 1 copper [at most], you are better off selling oxygen to beggars to become rich."


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Mon Jan 01, 2018 4:42 pm 
Offline
Wayist

Joined: Mon Apr 17, 2017 2:27 pm
Posts: 25
What myself, I believe many other people, don't like about this "challenge" (to be clear, have done patrols many times on insane, and I'm well aware of how to avoid and beat them):
  • Avoidable while quite hard, so leads to a really dull 'minigame' of moving very carefully on the world map
  • Unrewarding, almost no xp given - if you want to farm ingredients, just use the ruined dungeon - surely farportals are safer and more profitable for farming equipment (if one feels a great need for it, only ever worth it for dispersion gloves before entering high peak)


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Wed Jan 17, 2018 5:28 pm 
Offline
Yeek

Joined: Sat Oct 24, 2015 6:38 pm
Posts: 12
Quidix wrote:
What myself, I believe many other people, don't like about this "challenge"

There's an addon to remove them. If you don't like them install it.


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Wed Jan 17, 2018 6:25 pm 
Offline
Halfling

Joined: Mon Nov 04, 2013 1:28 am
Posts: 107
Location: St.Petersburg, Russia
Just FYI:
Rocket Boots works on the world map aswell. You don't even need steam generator - rather equip Steam Powered Boots, pop Rocket Boots on before leaving town and voila - you have like 50+ movements with 300% MS

_________________
Topics of my winners:
[39106] [39570] [40395] [40528] [41077] [47980] [48042][48533]
My characters: https://te4.org/user/77557/characters


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Mon Jan 22, 2018 1:39 am 
Offline
Halfling

Joined: Mon Dec 13, 2004 4:48 pm
Posts: 93
I don't think I saw this mentioned; but they never decrease in numbers either. If patrols disappeared when you took out zigur, or were reduced greatly as you took out each of the orcs, people probably wouldn't mind so much.

Also, why isn't there a big chance of avoiding even if you end up next to one? I can't see the world map squares being say 100meters across where 1-2 people running into 2-5 would be realistic. Figured it was more on the km scale where it would be highly possible (especially in some terrain; trees, hills, mountains) that both parties would simply never meet up even if occupying the same square.


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Fri Feb 16, 2018 5:17 am 
Offline
Higher

Joined: Wed Mar 25, 2009 3:27 pm
Posts: 46
Man, OP got set upon by apologists way too early. Sorry OP! You suck at surviving patrols (very understandably, since they are hugely strong and it takes a long time to learn the tricks, some of which are indeed stupid exploits) and you suck at preventing well-meaning neckbeards from accidentally derailing you with unsolicited advice intended to solve your "real" problem, but you were right. Patrols are dumb and unfun for the most part and they need more polish.

Personally I think they do add something to the game; they fit the lore and if they had an interesting AI instead of a stupid one, or if there were interesting and non-cheaty-feeling ways to get around them instead of just blandly simple ones that exploit weird mechanics that probably shouldn't even exist, then they could be really cool.

The trouble with this aspect of the game is that it's a full minigame in itself, with its own special rules that are mostly separate from the main game... it needs more than just a little tweak; it needs to be replaced with a better entire (mini)game. That's a delicate job and possibly a large one, and I don't expect it to ever happen.

I can think of a couple of tweaks that would help significantly though: As is suggested above, YES reduce Zigur patrols if the player reduces Zigur's influence, and yes reduce orc patrols as the prides fall. (Preferably the orcs would even be reduced by pride WITHIN ambushes - that is, if you toppled Gorbat then you'd see fewer patrols on the big map, but on top of that, within any given Ambush map you'd see hardly any wyrmics anymore!) This would give the player some more control over them, helping to alleviate the annoyance they can produce, and it would nicely reinforce the story as well.

As for the tough moment when an inexperienced player first sets forth from the Sunwall: Let the player recruit celestial-patrol buddies to help block the orcs! They could clash with orc patrols in a way similar to how they already do, albeit maybe with an extra-high chance of winning, or maybe, for more determinacy, with a simple "strength remaining" stat - i.e., each helper will neutralize exactly three orc patrols and then die - or something else like that. Maybe you could only do this, say, twice per game, since the Sunwall's resources are tight. Maybe you could even gain a few extra chances at it by completing quests; existing ones could suffice: For instance, the spider lair quest could get you one, and raiding the Vor armory might get you another. Maybe you could spend gold or gems or something to gain one, too, if that could be justified in-world. All of this could be implemented simply and in a way that would rely mostly on logic that's already in the game.

Hm I'm imagining the Sunwall helpers as being an actively simulated follower of you on the world map, but they could also be implemented as an implicit augmentation of you that would only fully manifest within ambushes: That is, if you recruit a party of guards in town, then during your next trip across the world map, you'd look the same and act the same, as would orc patrols, but upon the start of any Ambush scene, several sun paladins and anorithils would appear to fight the orcs with you. Simple!

I don't have any serious trouble avoiding patrols anymore, but if I had say 2-5 chances per run to fight them with celestial guards at my side, then I think I might take one or two of them, just for the fun and the loot. And you'd still have the option to ignore this system and fight the orcs alone.

Yeah I don't expect any of this to happen either, except maybe the part about reducing patrols once their source is destroyed since that's probably especially simple to implement, but oh well, it's interesting to speculate. (I mean I'd do it all myself if I had infinite time but you know how time is.)


Top
 Profile  
 
Display posts from previous:  Sort by  
Post new topic Reply to topic  [ 40 posts ]  Go to page Previous  1, 2, 3

All times are UTC


Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 4 guests


You cannot post new topics in this forum
You cannot reply to topics in this forum
You cannot edit your posts in this forum
You cannot delete your posts in this forum
You cannot post attachments in this forum

Search for:
Jump to:  
Powered by phpBB® Forum Software © phpBB Group