ToME: the Tales of Maj'Eyal

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PostPosted: Fri Sep 22, 2017 9:25 am 
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Spiderkin

Joined: Wed Apr 27, 2011 11:04 pm
Posts: 555
Hello!

I have a dagger that gives 40% chance to blind on dagger hit.
And 15% blind on melee hit.

Is this a 55% chance?

EDIT: Now a pair of gloves gives 30% blind. I wonder if I now have a 85% chance to blind?
With projection that might blind the whole screen...?


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PostPosted: Fri Sep 22, 2017 8:45 pm 
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Uruivellas

Joined: Fri Oct 10, 2014 4:00 pm
Posts: 845
I think each of the chances are evaluated separately. So, if my math is correct, it would be = 0.4 + ((1 - 0.4) * 0.15) + ((1 - 0.4) * (1 - 0.15) * 0.3) = 64.3% chance.


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PostPosted: Sat Sep 23, 2017 12:35 am 
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Higher

Joined: Wed Sep 28, 2016 8:07 pm
Posts: 45
I assume the on melee hit from daggers would be additive with the gloves, if so it would be
1-(1-.4)*(1-(.15+.3))=.67
If not, Effigy's answer is right, but the math can be simplified a fair bit
1-(1-.4)*(1-.15)*(1-.3)=.643

(For anyone curious, multiplying probabilities of independent events gives you the chance all those events occur, and subtracting an events probability from 1 gives you the chance that that event doesn't occur. So here, I subtracted all the chances of blindness from 1 and multiplied them together to get the chance blindness is never applied (1-.4)*(1-.15)*(1-.3) and then subtracted that from 1 to get the chance blindness is not never applied, which is just a different way of saying it is applied.)


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PostPosted: Sat Sep 23, 2017 10:44 am 
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Sher'Tul

Joined: Sat May 15, 2010 9:17 pm
Posts: 1457
Dunno about the math, but generally on-melee stacks with other on-melee, and anything specifically on the weapon (all the numbers above the "When wielded/worn:" line in the item description.) is specifically for that weapon.

A dagger that has a 40% chance to blind on weapon hit and a 15% chance to blind on melee would have a 40% chance to blind when that specific dagger hits something, and a separate 15% chance for anything melee (offhand, flexible combat, projection, basically anything that uses a melee strike), including the specific dagger.

If you were still wearing that dagger, and put on a set of gloves that had a 30% chance to blind on melee, if you hit something with that dagger it would have a 40% chance to blind and a separate 45% chance to blind. If you had a second dagger that didn't have any chance to blind, that second dagger would only have a 45% chance to blind. If you had flexible combat (or were using one of the glove tinkers that offered unarmed attacks, or whatever) and punched something, assuming the gloves didn't have their own chance to blind specific to those gloves, that punch would also only have a 45% chance to blind.

Meanwhile if you're wearing that 40/15% on weapon hit/on melee dagger, and a separate one that had only a 30% chance to blind on weapon hit (and no other source of on melee blind chance), then hitting with both daggers would get you a 40% chance to blind, a 30% chance to blind, and two separate 15% chances to blind.

On melee will mostly stack indefinitely and additively, at least insofar as the value itself goes. There's some oddities with how T4 calculates some stuff that can mean a 30% whatever doesn't actually translate to a 30% debuff, but generally if you can stack up 100% worth of on melee between your items, your melee attacks will have a 100% chance to do whatever that thing is -- blind, give an extra turn, inflict a random gloom effect, whatever.

The exception is on melee slows. That stacks additively up to a cap of 60%, so there's no point in having more than, say, two 30% on melee slow random artifacts or rares. There's also some weirdness with how slow effects are applied, such that you generally don't want to wear a weapon with on weapon hit slow and equipment with on melee slow at that same time (or anything with slow when hit, ala slime robes). Least from what I've noticed, the game will generally apply the weakest slow it can, which means if you have 60% on melee slows on your equipment and a 4% on weapon hit slow on your melee weapon, hitting something with that weapon will apply that 4%, not the 60%. Tends to outright overwrite it, too. Slime damage is again separate from either of those, so watch out for that, too.

... also the exception to that, is random gloom effects (or anything that reduces global speed that doesn't specifically use the "Slow" debuff). Slowed by the gloom is not the same as slowed (though both reduce global speed), and the two of them actually stack up with each other. If you're going for max passive slow, you have 60% on melee slow and then as much chance of on melee random gloom you can scrounge up.

Bottom line, it generally just means you only want to have a single source of slow on your equipment, if you care about how strong that slow is. On melee will stack up to a limit, not much else will, and pretty much all of the different sorts conflict in one way or another. I personally (at least if I'm using a melee class) tend to just stack up that 60% on melee and then avoid every other source of equipment granted slow (and any source of slime damage, at least if I'm not playing an oozemancer) like the plague. Keeps things simple and it's basically the melee class's god stat so far as kit goes, so itemization doesn't take as much attention.


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PostPosted: Tue Apr 24, 2018 11:44 am 
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Spiderkin

Joined: Wed Apr 27, 2011 11:04 pm
Posts: 555
Frumple wrote:
The exception is on melee slows. That stacks additively up to a cap of 60%, so there's no point in having more than, say, two 30% on melee slow random artifacts or rares.


I assume, as you write 'the exeption', that blind 30% + 30% + 15%, is fine with a 75% chance to blind.


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