ToME: the Tales of Maj'Eyal

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PostPosted: Mon Nov 07, 2016 10:49 am 
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Uruivellas

Joined: Sun May 19, 2013 1:58 am
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The old forum guide list is horribly outdated so I decided to make a new one on my personal wiki page, which I intend to keep up to date. I believe all the guides listed to be of high quality and the tier list to be reasonably accurate. If you believe something should be added or removed, or the tier list should be modified, please let me know but make a compelling case for it because there are many guides I intentionally excluded.

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PostPosted: Mon Nov 07, 2016 3:16 pm 
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Sher'Tul

Joined: Wed May 22, 2013 2:39 am
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Location: Halifax, Nova Scotia, Canada
Props to you bpat if you can keep this up to date. I'm not sure what you may be looking for but here are some considerations to look into:

Competing Guides:

Obvious of these guys is my competing Inscription Guide. However, outside of this there are likely some other guides that may compete with what you have currently.

Video Guides:

Remember belmarduk? While back he made the Tome Let's Play - Bulwark beginner's guide videos. I've also of course created the Let's Learn Tales of Maj'Eyal. While these video series are both a little old at this point, they still serve as very useful resources for picking up tips on how to play the game.

Steam Guides:

While perhaps not the great repository of information, there is still some useful tidbits to pick up from the Steam's Guide section for the game.

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Inscription Guide - Version 1.4.8
Let's Learn Tales of Maj'Eyal


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PostPosted: Mon Nov 07, 2016 4:14 pm 
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Sher'Tul

Joined: Sun Jun 15, 2014 12:19 am
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Location: Yeehaw, pardner
Thanks for including my guide! I needed an ego boost. :P

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A little bit of a starters guide written by yours truly here.


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PostPosted: Mon Nov 07, 2016 4:58 pm 
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Halfling

Joined: Wed Oct 29, 2014 1:25 pm
Posts: 115
Thank you for putting in the work to keep things consolidated, bpat! Got you bookmarked. :)


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PostPosted: Mon Nov 07, 2016 5:50 pm 
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Magical Girl

Joined: Wed Aug 27, 2014 11:36 am
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Who're you calling a weeb? :o
I'll fight you bpats!

Image

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PostPosted: Mon Nov 07, 2016 7:55 pm 
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Uruivellas

Joined: Sun May 19, 2013 1:58 am
Posts: 769
Davion Fuxa wrote:
Competing Guides:

Obvious of these guys is my competing Inscription Guide. However, outside of this there are likely some other guides that may compete with what you have currently.


There's nothing wrong with competing guides, as long as they bring something to the table that the original one doesn't while still being of high quality. I added your Inscription Guide btw.

Davion Fuxa wrote:
Video Guides:

Remember belmarduk? While back he made the Tome Let's Play - Bulwark beginner's guide videos. I've also of course created the Let's Learn Tales of Maj'Eyal. While these video series are both a little old at this point, they still serve as very useful resources for picking up tips on how to play the game.


Haven't watched them completely yet but I'll do that and add them if they look good.

Davion Fuxa wrote:
Steam Guides:

While perhaps not the great repository of information, there is still some useful tidbits to pick up from the Steam's Guide section for the game.


I've never really looked at Steam guides so if you think one should be added, let me know and I'll take a look.

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PostPosted: Mon Nov 07, 2016 11:43 pm 
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Sher'Tul

Joined: Wed May 22, 2013 2:39 am
Posts: 1253
Location: Halifax, Nova Scotia, Canada
I always thought that the The innumerable uses of Arcane Eye was sort of interesting; good for telling you about how you can use a seemingly less useful skill in more useful ways and to keep that in mind when considering other talents.

I smirked a bit when watching the video in the ToMe - Video Tutorial for Beginners (v1.3.3) Steam Guide. If you are looking for a video guide that isn't hours long like mine or belmarduks then this is the guide for you! 11 minutes long and packed full of the most basic things you need to know; this is perhaps a good video for someone with absolutely no prior knowledge of the game - though notably information about just about any other game (rogue-like or not) in existence.

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Its amazing what the mind can come up with, but it shows talent to make something of it. - Davion Fuxa
Inscription Guide - Version 1.4.8
Let's Learn Tales of Maj'Eyal


Last edited by Davion Fuxa on Tue Nov 15, 2016 1:05 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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PostPosted: Sun Nov 13, 2016 2:18 pm 
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Higher

Joined: Sun Mar 15, 2015 8:20 am
Posts: 50
This looks great!

My suggestion is to split the "List of helpful guides" into two - a list of general helpful guides and a list of class guides. I'd also include the link to the old forum guide at the end of the list of class guides, with a note saying that there's a lot more class guides available there, but reader beware that they're outdated. IMO, even the outdated guides can often be a bit of help, when you're completely new to a class.

As for the tier list, overall, I think it looks good. I do think the Sawbutcher is top tier, though - doesn't everyone agree that he's OP? Also, I think you rated the alchemist too lowly - he's not amazing, but he's decent enough, and I think the fact that he's so beginner friendly as he is alone would bump him up a tier or two.
Speaking of that, maybe ranking classes by how accessible or beginner friendly they are would be helpful too? I'm sure a lot of us look at class guides sometimes, but I'm also sure that newer players are going to be the ones that use them the most. Perhaps either sort them like you do now, but add a beginner friendly rating in parenthesis, or sort them by beginner friendliness, and add their power tier in parenthesis?

EDIT: Also, if you don't split the list of helpful guides into two, I'd definitely put tometips at the top of it. IMO it's the most useful tool of all, and definitely the resource I use the most by far.


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PostPosted: Sun Nov 13, 2016 7:11 pm 
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Halfling

Joined: Mon Apr 18, 2016 9:46 pm
Posts: 99
Looks like useful compilation of guides, nice work bpat. I like how Sheilas guides breaks the serious and gloomy atmosphere of ToME though :D. However the solipsist guide looks weird and it says that its mandatory to get a full set of items from the vault beside other cheesy stuff. I would reconsider adding it to the list personally.
I thought about writing a weapon focused Bulwark guide that completely ignores block mechanic but decided against it since it doesnt give the "feel" of a sword and board class and treats the class as a weaker version of other classes. If you feel like the class needs an alternative guide I may try to write one. Still I think the current guide is better than you give it credit for.
If you can really keep this up to date it should really get a sticky. Cheers!

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PostPosted: Sun Nov 13, 2016 8:48 pm 
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Sher'Tul Godslayer

Joined: Mon Feb 14, 2011 11:16 pm
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My solipsist guide on the wiki still works for 1.4.9 btw. very different approach to the one you list.

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PostPosted: Mon Nov 14, 2016 3:29 pm 
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Halfling

Joined: Wed Oct 29, 2014 1:25 pm
Posts: 115
Skafsgaard wrote:
Speaking of that, maybe ranking classes by how accessible or beginner friendly they are would be helpful too? I'm sure a lot of us look at class guides sometimes, but I'm also sure that newer players are going to be the ones that use them the most. Perhaps either sort them like you do now, but add a beginner friendly rating in parenthesis, or sort them by beginner friendliness, and add their power tier in parenthesis?


I think that's a great idea. A lot of new players probably look for lists like that to get a sense of which classes to pick up first. And we all know what happens to new players who pick up Arcane Blade... :lol:


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PostPosted: Mon Nov 14, 2016 8:42 pm 
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Uruivellas

Joined: Sun May 19, 2013 1:58 am
Posts: 769
Davion Fuxa I'll take a look at the videos in the near future.

Skafsgaard wrote:
My suggestion is to split the "List of helpful guides" into two - a list of general helpful guides and a list of class guides. I'd also include the link to the old forum guide at the end of the list of class guides, with a note saying that there's a lot more class guides available there, but reader beware that they're outdated. IMO, even the outdated guides can often be a bit of help, when you're completely new to a class.

As for the tier list, overall, I think it looks good. I do think the Sawbutcher is top tier, though - doesn't everyone agree that he's OP? Also, I think you rated the alchemist too lowly - he's not amazing, but he's decent enough, and I think the fact that he's so beginner friendly as he is alone would bump him up a tier or two.
Speaking of that, maybe ranking classes by how accessible or beginner friendly they are would be helpful too? I'm sure a lot of us look at class guides sometimes, but I'm also sure that newer players are going to be the ones that use them the most. Perhaps either sort them like you do now, but add a beginner friendly rating in parenthesis, or sort them by beginner friendliness, and add their power tier in parenthesis?


I don't think there are enough general guides to warrant splitting it into two sections. I can't think of any outdated guides that'd still be useful. Sawbutcher isn't even close to tier S, in fact it's not even close to Temporal Warden. Steamrolling Normal difficulty isn't a very hard or impressive thing to do and Oozemancer does that even better. Beginner class choices are pretty arbitrary, I found Alchemist to be way harder than other classes when I was starting out. Also Micbran's guide covers beginner class choices.

posetcay wrote:
However the solipsist guide looks weird and it says that its mandatory to get a full set of items from the vault beside other cheesy stuff. I would reconsider adding it to the list personally.


I'll give it another read soon and maybe remove it. Thanks for pointing it out.

jenx wrote:
My solipsist guide on the wiki still works for 1.4.9 btw. very different approach to the one you list.


Could you link it? I'll take a look.

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PostPosted: Tue Nov 15, 2016 12:11 pm 
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Sher'Tul Godslayer

Joined: Mon Feb 14, 2011 11:16 pm
Posts: 2262
bpat wrote:
...
jenx wrote:
My solipsist guide on the wiki still works for 1.4.9 btw. very different approach to the one you list.


Could you link it? I'll take a look.


Wow - it's for version 1.0.4 - http://te4.org/wiki/Walk-through_for_Dwarven_Solipsist

Still, the principles are the same in 1.4.9.

And a forum guide: viewtopic.php?f=60&t=38190

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PostPosted: Thu Nov 17, 2016 12:07 pm 
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Higher

Joined: Sun Mar 15, 2015 8:20 am
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bpat wrote:
I don't think there are enough general guides to warrant splitting it into two sections. I can't think of any outdated guides that'd still be useful. Sawbutcher isn't even close to tier S, in fact it's not even close to Temporal Warden. Steamrolling Normal difficulty isn't a very hard or impressive thing to do and Oozemancer does that even better. Beginner class choices are pretty arbitrary, I found Alchemist to be way harder than other classes when I was starting out. Also Micbran's guide covers beginner class choices.


I have to say, whenever you have a list of more than five or six items, splitting it into sub-sections just makes readability, and finding what you're looking for that much easier. It makes sense too, given that all the guides fall within two very specific types - general guides and class guides. Plus, there'll likely be a continuous stream of new class guides. Regardless, if you don't want to do this, and that's of course your prerogative, then I think you should at least move ToME Tips to the top. It's a bit messy that it's at the bottom, after all of the class guides, when all of the other general guides are at the top. If you're not looking for class guides, I think it's very easy to miss it, since some might just skip reading the rest of the list when they realise it's only class guides from there.

As for the Sawbutcher, I'm a bit surprised to hear you say that. I thought there was a wide-spread opinion that it's an OP class, and my own Nightmare (RL) run was a breeze, and it's so far the only class I've won with without ever rerolling, due to dying or anything else. I've only had one Sawbutch character, and he steamrolled.
EDIT: Admittedly, the run was in the Embers campaign, which, is probably a good bit easier, not to mention shorter.

In terms for beginner-friendly classes being arbitrary, I definitely agree. However, there's still a good bit of consensus around which classes are easier to get a handle on - even if they're not necessarily better, they might be less complex to learn, even if it's a bit subjective. Heck, I'm even like you in regards to the alchemist. The Golem mechanics, speccing/gearing, and party management was less than straightforward for me when I started out, even though the Alchemists own skills are very easy to get a grip on. Now I just find the Alchemist to be a perfect combination of boring and a hassle.
But, subjective or not, I think many newcomers would like at least a recommendation on what to start with, since it can be a bit overwhelming at first, when you just want to learn the game - and there's got to be at least some reason for the consensus regarding Alchemists. Maybe tiering all classes in terms of beginner-friendliness/complexity is overkill, but I think recommending at least a handful of classes or so for beginners would be a good start.

I don't hope you find me to be contrarian. I just think a great effort and resource like this deserves the best feedback possible.


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PostPosted: Thu Nov 17, 2016 12:40 pm 
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Uruivellas

Joined: Sun May 19, 2013 1:58 am
Posts: 769
If you want continue debating Sawbutcher's place on the tier list, we should probably move that to the actual tier list thread. My ending thoughts are that to be in tier S, Sawbutcher has to be better than Temporal Warden and close Arcane Blade in power, and it fits neither of these. Temporal Warden wins in damage, mobility, and probably defense and it's ranged too. Sawbutcher's To The Arms and Spinal Break are the only things it has going for it compared to Temporal Warden and they aren't enough to win out, especially when Sawbutcher has no stun, no status cleanse/prevention, no teleports, and no healing or shields. Tempest of Metal and Grinding Shield are great and all but they aren't even as good as Webs of Fate and Time Shield. Then even if Sawbutcher is as good as Temporal Warden, Arcane Blade, the lowest tier S class, beats Sawbutcher in literally everything aside from silence and manaburn being annoying, by a lot, so that isn't even close.

For beginner classes, aside from Berserker being the best class available from the start, it really varies person to person. I found Alchemist to be unplayable as a beginner, but I had a lot of success with Arcane Blade and Necromancer in comparison, which is the opposite of many peoples' experiences. So I still think it's too hard to judge.

I'll reconsider the organization of the list, but I don't think I'll make any changes yet.

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