ToME: the Tales of Maj'Eyal

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PostPosted: Sun Mar 03, 2013 3:57 am 
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Sher'Tul Godslayer

Joined: Mon Mar 14, 2011 10:32 am
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wobbly wrote:
Anyone know if talents like block count as an "attack" for speed purposes?

I'm fairly sure that all "techniques" use the same speed as an attack.

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PostPosted: Sun Mar 03, 2013 6:32 pm 
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Wyrmic

Joined: Fri Jan 18, 2013 8:35 am
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Might be true for techniques, but I've been surprised at some of the weird timings: basically, every single Cursed talent, including all of those Slaughter ones, use global speed, rather than combat speed. Which is cool if you're using something like a blighted maul, you can get a massive frenzy, but it's certainly not intuitive.

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PostPosted: Thu May 23, 2013 2:16 pm 
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Wayist

Joined: Fri May 10, 2013 12:04 pm
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Thanks for the write up, very informative!

I'd just like to point out that Eden's Guile scales with cunning (as of 1.0.1, didn't test earlier). On a 100cun marauder it was +70% global speed, and on 145cun AB it was a smokin' +92% !!!


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PostPosted: Sun Nov 30, 2014 6:17 pm 
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Yeek

Joined: Thu Feb 14, 2013 2:33 pm
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Is cooldown of talents affected by global speed?


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PostPosted: Sun Nov 30, 2014 6:19 pm 
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Uruivellas

Joined: Sat Oct 04, 2014 8:03 pm
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No. CD on all things is based on global turns, so if you have a 200% global speed, talents and statuses will appear to cool down at half speed.

Think about how long it takes Movement Infusions to wear off. Same thing for talents.

Also, re-reading this guide here, it sorely needs updating. I'm not sure if the mechanics still apply properly, but it refers to quick weapons as having attack speeds of under 100%. Quick weapons in ToME today have 111% attack speed.

Does anyone know what addon he's using to track all the data? If I can get it, I'll try to write an updated guide for speed.

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PostPosted: Sun Nov 30, 2014 9:14 pm 
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Archmage

Joined: Thu Dec 12, 2013 7:28 pm
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One thing that always throws me off is the duration of effects in terms of player actions. Durations are always given in terms of turns, but if my speed for a given action is greater than 100%, then that action won't always cause durations to tick down. Is there a way to know how a particular action will affect the turn duration of a timed effect?

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PostPosted: Sun Nov 30, 2014 9:19 pm 
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Uruivellas

Joined: Sat Oct 04, 2014 8:03 pm
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Short of actually traacking your exact turn energy from the very start of the game? No. You can make educated guesses (150% speed means every 3 actions will have effects tick 2 times, but depending on various other factors it might be more or less) but once you get above or below 100% things get a bit fuzzy.

The addonjenk used could also tell you, assuming it works for 1.25

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PostPosted: Sun Nov 30, 2014 9:42 pm 
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Uruivellas

Joined: Sat Oct 04, 2014 8:03 pm
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Okay, did some testing with Clock. It'll be a bit odd to use properly, but it should let you know exactly when things will come off cooldown. Always check on your remaining energy, energy per action, and energy left in the turn. In addition, if you have a fast or slow weapon, Clock will not take this into account for talents or bump attacks.

As for speeds, the guide is actually still fully accurate, with one exception. Since current fast weapons use speeds of over 100%, instead of multipliying the energy needed per weapon hit by weapon attack speed, you divide by the attack speed as a number.

Example: I have 200% attack speed and a weapon with 120% attack speed. Nomrally, my bump attack takes 500 energy (1000/2). However, because my weapon has greater speed, it only takes 417 energy to actually perform an attack (500/1.2).

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PostPosted: Mon Dec 08, 2014 1:18 pm 
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Well all speed things are nice but they are useless for most of the class because they mainly only affect moves and bump atacks, and they hardly give an edge in the first turn of a fight.
For exemple what is the point of global speed for a solipsist but screwing its spell rotation?


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PostPosted: Mon Dec 08, 2014 10:57 pm 
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Uruivellas

Joined: Sat Oct 04, 2014 8:03 pm
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Bump attacks if that's your thing. Infusions, or Runes, if you're not antimagic. Something from the Light tree, perhaps, or Channel Staff if you went with a really weird build. Taking an extra step away from your enemy. Switch equipment to something a bit more optimal. Activate a torque, wand, or some on-carry usable items. Etc.

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PostPosted: Tue Dec 09, 2014 12:22 pm 
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Yeah, pretty cool dude! :) 8)


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PostPosted: Thu Dec 18, 2014 1:00 am 
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Sher'Tul Godslayer

Joined: Mon Feb 14, 2011 11:16 pm
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giltheb wrote:
Well all speed things are nice but they are useless for most of the class because they mainly only affect moves and bump atacks, and they hardly give an edge in the first turn of a fight.
For exemple what is the point of global speed for a solipsist but screwing its spell rotation?



Great question - and the answer is, the point is very significant indeed. The vast majority of npcs you encounter use dumb ai to choose talents. If you look at the code, you'll see that if they lose a lot of hp (percentage wise), they will always choose to flee or heal, if they can. So with greater speed, you will almost always get two turns before their first turn. Do as much damage as you can in those two turns, and on their turn, they usually won't attack you. then you get turn 3 and presto, dead npc mostly.

this works also on nightmare and insane, and is key to victory. I wrote a new ai addon to change this, but for an older version of tome :-(.

This is also why any attack that does damage but takes no turn is so powerful. One of the greatest under-utilised attacks imho is lightning/fire/ice runes, because they take no turn. so you get THREE hits before they act if you are faster than opponent :-)

This is also why things like circles (anorithils), moss (oozemancers) and other instant damaging talents are so fabulous.

By the way, this logic also helps you decide between a talent that does 400 hp damage in one turn versus one that does 2000 hp over 10 turns. do the 400 first, to maximise your chance that the dumb ai will then choose retreat or heal over attack.

and beware the cornerned npc !! if a master skeleton archer has 1 hitpoint and no healing rune available, it will still shoot you!

cheers, jenx

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PostPosted: Thu Dec 18, 2014 1:06 am 
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Uruivellas

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I tend to prefer 2000 damage over ten turns, actually. Most builds I run never have to worry about trash mobs, so the only things I consider a real threat are rares or bosses, and I don't often have the damage to deal with them in just a few turns. That way I can set up a couple of DoT attacks first, so instead of doing 1000 damage up front then waiting 10 turns for the last 2000, I start the 2000 damage, get in my three or so attacks that total up to 1000 and get 3000 damage a couple of turns early.

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PostPosted: Thu Jan 22, 2015 2:06 pm 
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Uruivellas

Joined: Fri Oct 10, 2014 4:00 pm
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How does stacking work for the different types of speed? Do 2 bonuses of the same type stack, like Yeek racial global speed and Essence of Speed skill? What about movement speed on boots and a movement infusion?


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PostPosted: Tue Feb 23, 2016 4:49 am 
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Wyrmic

Joined: Thu May 23, 2013 12:25 am
Posts: 244
I've attempted to clean up and update the page on the wiki based on this article. In particular, weapon speeds are now above 100% for "faster". I would appreciate a review by anyone knowledgeable on the subject.

http://te4.org/wiki/Speed

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