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PostPosted: Mon Feb 16, 2015 2:42 am 
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Sher'Tul

Joined: Mon Jun 23, 2014 11:50 am
Posts: 1439
It is not a bug, so its not in the bug sections.
Its not a case of "what do you think" so its not going to general discussion section.
It is a "game logic" thing, that no one bothered with.
I have seen someone made a request, and DarkGod answered it, so here goes my.

Your shield does not protect you from getting poisoned, but it does protect you from taking poison or disease damage.
even if you got poisoned or diseased before putting up a shield, The shield will take all damage.
same goes for burning, bleeding, disarm, and all other physical effects. (i am not going to argue about mind or magic).
I could understand if the poison was anti-magical, but wouldn't the shield take all the damage instantly?

so the request is:
Would it be possible to make some effects bypass shield, and some only be applied if actual HP damage is dealt?
also, could take a look at things like "of projections" or "wave of power" triggering on hit effects? (i would not be surprised if it provoked a counter...)


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PostPosted: Mon Feb 16, 2015 4:55 pm 
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Archmage

Joined: Sun Jul 13, 2014 4:09 pm
Posts: 367
That'd really strengthen shield/block play, which is already almost a 'every character should have and use a shield'.

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PostPosted: Mon Feb 16, 2015 6:03 pm 
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Uruivellas

Joined: Fri Oct 10, 2014 4:00 pm
Posts: 872
I don't really see the problem with the current system. Damage shields absorb damage. Any damage you take while the shield is active, should go to the shield. Changing that would be unintuitive.


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PostPosted: Mon Feb 16, 2015 7:26 pm 
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Spiderkin

Joined: Sun Dec 22, 2013 2:22 pm
Posts: 510
Radon26 wrote:
so the request is:
Would it be possible to make some effects bypass shield, and some only be applied if actual HP damage is dealt?
also, could take a look at things like "of projections" or "wave of power" triggering on hit effects? (i would not be surprised if it provoked a counter...)

You forgot to add why this would be on improvement over the current situation and I feel it wouldn't be an improvement at all. Actually you forgot to specify what your proposal really is about too. I'm going to response to that "bypass shields" part.

I really really don't want to learn a new list of effects consisting on things that bypass damage shields. There is already the damage shield penetration ego and berserker and mindlslayer have talents that shatter damage shields outright. So damage shield penetration already exist in a way that feels much less complicated that you are proposing. (For the record, I don't like the penetration ego either, it encourages to check out every single monster for penetration ego. Damage shield shattering talents make much more sense because you know you are potentially in danger when you see a mindslayer/berserker).

And before anyone says "this would be a good change to nerf archmages" I'll add that nerfing damage shields this way could be the worst possible way of nerfing archmages because of 1) As already explained, adding more exceptions that are not very intuitive and cannot be detected without checking out the monsters weapon type makes things more tedious and adds unnecessary "memory games" to the game and 2) nerfing temporary damages shields nerfs every other non-archmage character that uses shielding runes too which is completely unnecessary and an indirect buff to infusions/heroism.

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PostPosted: Mon Feb 16, 2015 7:46 pm 
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Spiderkin

Joined: Sun Dec 22, 2013 2:22 pm
Posts: 510
Dracos wrote:
almost a 'every character should have and use a shield'.

In which universe does this happen?

Of ToME classes berserkers, brawlers, rogues, shadowblades, marauders, alchemists, archmages, necromancers, summoners, oozemancers, reavers, corruptors, doombringers, cursed, doomed, paradox mages, temporal wardens, anorithils, mindslayers and solipsists most likely should never wear a shield during a game of ToME. There are exceptions, like if you find a nice one-hander staff and Lunar Shield but no life drinker or other very good dagger/mindstar on an anotrithil but this the basic set up.

In addition, Sun paladins and arcane blades are both perfectly good without a shield.

Also, the OP was talking about damage shields...

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PostPosted: Wed Feb 18, 2015 1:57 am 
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Sher'Tul

Joined: Mon Jun 23, 2014 11:50 am
Posts: 1439
in the title there is "damage shield".
i don't mean the shield as in item. I mean shield that comes from damage shield rune, bathe in light, reflection rune, displacement shield and so on.

and as for "having to learn a who list of effects" and it being unintuitive...
yeah, it is really to be expected that the poison, that is already applied, would give a f*** about you puting on a shield.
likewise, shields to get set on fire, or be diseased...

as for improving:
that's... i guess i have no answer to that... but you would probably find it yourself if you try!


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PostPosted: Wed Feb 18, 2015 3:39 am 
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Uruivellas

Joined: Fri Oct 10, 2014 4:00 pm
Posts: 872
I think you're overthinking it. If something does damage over time, it seems to me that a damage shield should absorb damage regardless of when the effect was applied. A damage shield is basically temporary hit points. The hit points only matter at the moment damage is taken.


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PostPosted: Wed Feb 18, 2015 9:02 am 
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Uruivellas

Joined: Wed Apr 30, 2008 5:55 pm
Posts: 708
I've considered this before. I think it would be really cool and would make shields more interesting in general.

Here's how I'd do it for, say, bleed damage:
- Bleed damage completely bypasses shields.
- The bleed debuff can't be applied if you have a damage shield.

So, if you cast a damage shield it won't suddenly make all your blood loss stop. But if your shield is still up, attacks can't break through it to make you start bleeding.

This shouldn't debuff the existing heavy-shield classes too much, as shields should already be up preemptively. Plus, it actually buffs their strength since they can simply ignore that portion of damage (and other parts of status effects that also cause bleed/whatever damage).

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PostPosted: Wed Feb 18, 2015 11:52 am 
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Spiderkin

Joined: Sun Dec 22, 2013 2:22 pm
Posts: 510
grayswandir wrote:

Here's how I'd do it for, say, bleed damage:
- Bleed damage completely bypasses shields.
- The bleed debuff can't be applied if you have a damage shield.

So, if you cast a damage shield it won't suddenly make all your blood loss stop. But if your shield is still up, attacks can't break through it to make you start bleeding.

This shouldn't debuff the existing heavy-shield classes too much, as shields should already be up preemptively. Plus, it actually buffs their strength since they can simply ignore that portion of damage (and other parts of status effects that also cause bleed/whatever damage).


Yeah, this is pretty why this excatly why I wouldn't ever want to see this implemented. Now you would have to learn a new in-game sub-logic about effects that can or cannot be prevented by shields that is based on someone in someone on some thread thinking it would be "really cool". Unless you are proposing that ALL damage over time status effects are affected?

If you are not suggesting that all damage dealing status effects are affected and if you think coming up with an actual logic with actual arguments other than "really cool" would be trivial then let me ask you how is bleeding different than some other effect, like poison? Why would only one of the two be affected? Why would or wouldn't diseases be affected? Or how are physical effects different than mental effects if they both do damage to the player? How would you handle situations where the effect deals damage and a status effects like pin ( spydric poison) or diseases or flameshock or nightmare or fears or implode?. Which shields would be affected by this change (time shield, damage shield, bone shield)? What about effects like inner demons that don't damage the player per se but produce a an effect, a clone, that is most certainly capable of inflicting damage? What about arcane storm that results from your disruption shield blowing up? Would Flame spell now be completely useless against enemies with damage shields (it inflicts the "burning" status effect? What about on hit effects and shields: If you shield can absorb like 4/6 of the damage components but then brake will the status effect like poison be applied? What about stalk and mindlink which make you more vulnerable but doesn't deal direct damage? What about healing inversion?

The questions above are probably only a small minority of the questions a random player would need to be answered if this change would implemented. So the logic of which status effects are preventable should take these -and much more- into account or else the player would have to learn all the effects individually. And regardless of which is the case, I still don't see any upsides for this proposal because I don't think it's "really cool".

If the change would only affect a few effects then the effect on gameplay would be small anyways but would add confusion for pretty much no reason. (That is because I tend to value smooth, intuitive gameplay and mechanics over "really cool").

If the change would affect ALL damage over time status effects then I guess it would be more intuitive but I still see zero reasons for to be actually implemented. And the balance implications would probably be noticeable too. Also there probably would still be corner cases that would be unintuitive. And I don't think Bathe in Light needs an additional buff.

One additional point: with this new change one would have to pay attention to two resource pools instead of one: You would need to be aware your HP and your shields both if you have status effects (if shield wasn't up in time). I don't really like this either, just adds micromanagement and tedious calculation and stupid deaths for new players.

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PostPosted: Wed Feb 18, 2015 12:32 pm 
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Sher'Tul

Joined: Mon Jun 23, 2014 11:50 am
Posts: 1439
the idea i has was
All physical status effects, can only be applied if characters hp is damaged.
All effects applied by a close or ranged attacks, can only apply status effects if character's hp is damaged.
All status effects, damaging or otherwise, don't care about shield, if there were there before the shield was activated.

i think the above is short enough?
Unless healing inversion is applied as a bolt, there is no reason for it to bother with shield?

"only be applied if actual HP damage is dealt" which means, if its a rushing claws, it's damage will not be affected, but if it doesn't go through the shield, if it doesn't take some of your health, the pin would not be applied.

inner demons is a mind effect i believe, and those who clones, i only know of 2.
one is temporal clone, and the other is made by Anorithil. i sea no reason why those 2 would care about your shield.
clones are capable of doing damage, but they are spawned outside of your shield, so they have to go through it to damage you.

mind hook... grab the shield and all within (you are within)? makes sense, doesn't need to penetrate the shield to move you.
and its still a mind power

argument...
I really think it would make sense for some of the effects to work that way, otherwise its "game logic", which is not something that player would normally expect, in my opinion at least.


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PostPosted: Wed Feb 18, 2015 8:26 pm 
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Uruivellas

Joined: Fri Oct 10, 2014 4:00 pm
Posts: 872
That would make shields really overpowered. Status effects are one of the most dangerous threats in the game. If you can ignore them by just having a damage shield active, then damage shields would become the dominant defense mechanism even more than they already are. Archmage is already the strongest class in the game, and they are the damage shield master. If the proposed change were to happen, Archmage would be miles ahead of any other class.

In short, it's a "cool idea" that ultimately has far-reaching balance implications that aren't really justified.


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