ToME: the Tales of Maj'Eyal

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Do you think this idea should be implented?
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PostPosted: Thu Nov 24, 2005 12:50 am 
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Low Yeek

Joined: Tue Nov 08, 2005 3:39 am
Posts: 7
Class change proposal: Rogue

The goal of this proposal is to help distinguish the Rogue class from just another fighter class and to enhance enjoyablity of Tome(net) while not losing game balance or playability.

The first thing I think of when I think of the concept of rogues in general are movies involving safecrackers, Jesse James, social manipulators, secret agents, super-villains, hackers, etc...

I would love to play something along these lines in Tome(net), conceptually based on obfuscation, misdirection, high jinks, and all the other tom-foolery that surrounds vagabonds, scoundrels and rogues in general.

It seems curious that the rogues would have a critical-hits ability. This skill and knowledge seems to be misplaced for Rogues and closer tied to the domain of Martial Arts than any general roguishness. The Martial Artist would clearly study critical-hit spots in order to do massive damage with his bare hands, and would likely use this same knowledge in the implementation of small weaponry to do extra damage to a foe. The rogue should not be a prime fighter class. Though martial prowess should not be prohibited to him, there is no justifiable reason that he should be doing more damage than other fighter classes. The rogue’s power comes from subtle manipulations of his target victims, whether they are physical, mental, or sociopolitical in nature, allowing him to strike when he is best prepared (and optimally when his target is not).

So, in order to fully distinguish the Rogue class as a non-fighter class while trying to maintain game balance and playability, I hereby propose the following:

1) Remove the Critical-Strikes skill from the game altogether and merge the Critical-Hits functions for use with small weapons into the Martial Arts skill, as Martial Artists are more likely to study pressure points, strike points, etc. This shouldn’t be too terrible a blow to game balance as a Martial Artist can only fight with a weapon or bare hands, never both at the same time.

2) Create a new illusionary effects (more magic!!!) school based in the concept of fooling other players and monsters into complying with your wishes and a new related Skill “Trickery” to spend skill points on (details below).

3) Enable and finish development of the steal from monsters code. (The comment in the source is a poor excuse for not having it. Just use a flag for each unique like you do to prevent repeat DROP_GOOD’s. Or limit successful thefts with a temporary integer for the monster for number of items stolen and only drop the items he should have left on his person upon death.)

4) Change the backstabbing skill to work with attacks against foes with the friendly flag toggled on. (This would work hand-in-hand with an effect or two in the proposed school detailed below.)

5) Finish the pet code (this is kind of optional, but would make the game *MUCH* more interesting).

6) Get rid of Divination and Conveyance schools for Rogues, as the Roguish effects are included in the new proposed school or can be cross-schooled easily with the new Trickery school.

That being said, now on with the fun stuff!

Any values are just suggestions and should be heavily considered and tweaked for game balance. Duration of effects should be based on the level of “Trickery” skill.

Some of these effects could safely be used with magical projection, allowing their benefits to be bestowed upon others (so that Rogues have some benefit to society and aren’t all hunted down and killed on sight).

I think it is appropriate to base the success of these new spells upon the Rogue’s CHR stat, much as INT and WIS determine various success rates in Istar and Priest spell schools.

The proposed “Trickery” skill magic school allows access to the following spells/effects:


Cross-school spells: (making them multi-school is safer than giving them the entire school I think).

Divination: Sense Hidden (Detecting traps and noticing things creeping in the shadows.)
Divination: Vision (Getting maps of a target is often essential to the planning of a good heist.)
Temporal: Magelock (Who better knows security systems then those who foil them, eh?)
Conveyance: Disarm (probably not needed if the Rogue has good Disarming skill, but here none the less)
Conveyance: Recall (Always leave yourself somewhere to run to. “Abort! Mission impossible!”)
Conveyance: Probability Travel (break into a bank or get out of out of jail free card!)
Meta: Project Spells (for disguising other criminals in your gang!)


New spells for “Trickery” school:

Copy Cat – Rogues are infamous for their fortes as spies, thieves, assassins, and frauds through misrepresentation and obfuscation of their true intentions. This effect would be the mainstay of roguish ability. It is a variant of the Mimic ability. There are major distinctions which make it something altogether different from Mimicry though. Foremost, the player does not gain any kind of mechanical bonus from shifting forms. This false representation as something he is not is completely an illusion. You don’t get extra attacks, spell casting bonuses, speed, huge HP or SP gains, or any other “stat” changes at all. You only appear different aesthetically (changing your character/color on the screen and your title and class descriptions where they appear in the interface). The potential for this effect’s uses are: 1) fooling other players into thinking you are not a Rogue, 2) fooling monsters into thinking you are not a player (see “Sly Tongue” below). The other distinction from Mimicry is that this effect is only active for a specific duration, forcing the character to shift back to his normal Rogue form after a number of game turns based upon his “Trickery” skill level. This duration can be shortened after the initial casting by effects perpetrated upon the Rogue, such as changes in his state of mind (confusion, sanity, hallucination, etc), or his physical state (receiving large amounts of damage, getting too hungry, etc), as these afflictions weaken his resolve and concentration, causing the illusion to falter.
Monster forms must be learned through contact with them (by minimum number of kills), and player class forms are learned through contact with other player classes (by minimum number of successful p.v.p. thefts from the class). Combined with a minimum level requirement in “Trickery” for forms (as in Mimicry), eventually all of the player and monster classes could (theoretically) be learned.
*projectable*


Street Value – This is a Rogue version of item identification for items in your inventory, basically the equivalent of a black market appraisal. It differs from the standard Identify in that as the spell level increases, the effects progressively get better. I think it should start at level 8 of “Trickery” (the same level as the ID spell in Divination).
Here’s a suggested breakdown of what I have in mind (these are Trickery levels, not spell levels):
Level 8 – one simple pseudo-id function call
Level 11 – two simple pseudo-id function calls
Level 14 – one better pseudo-id function call, one simple pseudo-id function call
Level 17 – one better pseudo-id function call, two simple pseudo-id function calls
Level 20 – two better pseudo-id function calls
Level 23 – one targeted Identify spell, one simple pseudo-id function call
Level 26 – one targeted Identify spell, two simple pseudo-id function calls
Level 29 – one targeted Identify spell, one better pseudo-id function call, one simple pseudo-id function call
Level 32 – one targeted Identify spell, one better pseudo-id function call, two simple pseudo-id function calls
Level 35 – one targeted Identify spell, two better pseudo-id function calls
Level 38 – one targeted *Identify* spell, one simple pseudo-id function call
Level 41 – one targeted *Identify* spell, one better pseudo-id function call
Level 44 – one targeted *Identify* spell, two better pseudo-id function calls
Level 47 – one targeted *Identify* spell, three better pseudo-id function calls
Level 50 – one targeted *Identify* spell, one Identify Everything scroll function call


Hide in Shadows – Stalking dark alleys and dimly lit halls for prey, Rogues are often found in the squalors of society. This effect would give a temporary boost to the Rogue’s Stealth level for a number of game turns based on his Trickery skill level, and at higher levels would grant temporary invisibility as well. *projectable*

Sheep’s Clothing – The Rogue’s ability to fool and manipulate others is highly dependant on his skill of social backstabbing. Appearing as a friend to your enemy is a great asset in the arts of love and war. This spell is where most of the power of the Rogue truly lies. This spell fools monsters into thinking you are one of them, and (at higher levels) other players into thinking you are his or her friend. In game mechanic terms this toggles the friendly flag for monsters for a specific duration, and at higher levels has the potential to make other players un-hostile you (provided the target doesn’t resist the effects).
The spell is a radius effect centered on the player which starts at radius 1 and gradually increases to include all hostiles which can see you by skill level 50.
Many factors should combine into the casting of this spell. Modifiers for success should include the Rogue’s CHR vs. the target’s WIS (or monster level + SMART flag bonus), the Rogue’s vs. the target’s unawareness (see p.v.p. stealing code for example), the players Trickery skill level, the current form of the Rogue (bonus for being the same form as target using Copy Cat), the ability of the monster to perceive and comprehend (mindless monsters should be immune), etc.
SMART monsters are particularly aware of social concerns and should have the discernment to perceive your larcenous attempt and inform other SMARTs about you (SMART implies the ability to communicate), thus when one SMART monster under the effect of Sheep’s Clothing has the effect broken for him, all other SMART monsters in the area (radius determined by monster level) also have the effect broken.
The effects of this spell should end (and friendlies revert back to their formally hostile selves) when one of two things happen:
1) the Rogue attacks a friendly (using Backstabbing bonus if applicable), breaking the effect for the monster and those around him. This is a radius effect which un-friendlies friendly monsters and hastes hostile monsters centered on the monster being attacked, The radius should be fairly large at low Trickery skill levels and gradually reduced to a radius of 0 at skill level 50.)
2) the duration of the effect ends.
Friendly monsters currently would do nothing in particular. When the pet code is implemented they would actually attack other hostiles, doing some of the dirty work for you, this is very Roguish in a social political light, turning one friend against another and fits very well with the theme. It may seem a bit extreme, but this could be done with hostile players as well, making them hostile each other randomly. (Imagine a posse surrounding a bank robber in a gorge in the wild west, all of them with their guns ablazing. Now imagine the silly thief in the middle bouncing about so they end up shooting each other! :P )

Sly Tongue – Rogues often get away with perpetrating frauds due to their sharp wit and fast tongue, preying on the empathies of others and convincing persons that what would do them harm would instead be beneficial. This spell can effect the unawareness of the target and can help in casting Sheep’s Clothing above. This spell should effect the abilities of it’s target, starting as a single target and working up through a ball effect to a radius centered on the Rogue. The effects are cumulative as the skill level increases:
1) Sleeping monsters wake up. As this is a linguistic effect, you have to be heard to use it.
2) At low levels it confuses monsters with normal chances to resist. “You seem more dissuading.” (as Confuse Monster).
3) At mid levels it scares monsters with normal chances to resist. “You seem more intimidating.” (as Scare Monster).
4) At high levels it temporarily boosts the Rogue’s CHR. “You seem more convincing.”


Having worked as a professional game designer I find the Angband system to be a completely whacked and kludged together hodge-podge of various other gaming systems, it reminds me of good old AD&D in a lot of ways. That being said, this is the best I could come up with within the current framework to make this class distinct from the rest. I hope it gets implemented as it should generate more intense player interactions and might actually stimulate some role-play. Thieves guild anyone? :)

-Potter


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PostPosted: Thu Nov 24, 2005 6:08 pm 
Offline
Halfling

Joined: Thu Jun 03, 2004 7:19 am
Posts: 112
Location: Hyvinkää, Finland
Potter wrote:
It seems curious that the rogues would have a critical-hits ability. This skill and knowledge seems to be misplaced for Rogues and closer tied to the domain of Martial Arts than any general roguishness. The Martial Artist would clearly study critical-hit spots in order to do massive damage with his bare hands, and would likely use this same knowledge in the implementation of small weaponry to do extra damage to a foe. The rogue should not be a prime fighter class. Though martial prowess should not be prohibited to him, there is no justifiable reason that he should be doing more damage than other fighter classes. The rogue’s power comes from subtle manipulations of his target victims, whether they are physical, mental, or sociopolitical in nature, allowing him to strike when he is best prepared (and optimally when his target is not).

And what's wrong with critical hits using light swords? And Martial Artists learn many special techniques already that do nice damage and can stun or slow down monsters. And rogues are pretty good at trapping but it's not very popular...

Potter wrote:
So, in order to fully distinguish the Rogue class as a non-fighter class while trying to maintain game balance and playability, I hereby propose the following:

1) Remove the Critical-Strikes skill from the game altogether and merge the Critical-Hits functions for use with small weapons into the Martial Arts skill, as Martial Artists are more likely to study pressure points, strike points, etc. This shouldn’t be too terrible a blow to game balance as a Martial Artist can only fight with a weapon or bare hands, never both at the same time.

Martial Artists can already score critical hits with their bare hands. I think they should just stick to using their bare hands.

Potter wrote:
2) Create a new illusionary effects (more magic!!!) school based in the concept of fooling other players and monsters into complying with your wishes and a new related Skill “Trickery” to spend skill points on (details below).

Woot :shock:

Potter wrote:
3) Enable and finish development of the steal from monsters code. (The comment in the source is a poor excuse for not having it. Just use a flag for each unique like you do to prevent repeat DROP_GOOD’s. Or limit successful thefts with a temporary integer for the monster for number of items stolen and only drop the items he should have left on his person upon death.)

This might be a bit difficult in real time since you'd probably have to fight the monster too.

Potter wrote:
5) Finish the pet code (this is kind of optional, but would make the game *MUCH* more interesting).

Yeah, this could be interesting, tho we already have brainless golems.

Potter wrote:
6) Get rid of Divination and Conveyance schools for Rogues, as the Roguish effects are included in the new proposed school or can be cross-schooled easily with the new Trickery school.

Err, so we're going to simply cross-school spells from istari? I'd prefer brand new ones. People tend to just pick the most powerful/useful istari spells.

Potter wrote:
I think it is appropriate to base the success of these new spells upon the Rogue’s CHR stat, much as INT and WIS determine various success rates in Istar and Priest spell schools.

Well, CHR is kinda a cheap stat... CHR pots don't cost that much and +CHR items are easy to get. I think they could be based on DEX which is more related to rogues.

Potter wrote:
Cross-school spells: (making them multi-school is safer than giving them the entire school I think).

Divination: Sense Hidden (Detecting traps and noticing things creeping in the shadows.)
Divination: Vision (Getting maps of a target is often essential to the planning of a good heist.)
Temporal: Magelock (Who better knows security systems then those who foil them, eh?)
Conveyance: Disarm (probably not needed if the Rogue has good Disarming skill, but here none the less)
Conveyance: Recall (Always leave yourself somewhere to run to. “Abort! Mission impossible!”)
Conveyance: Probability Travel (break into a bank or get out of out of jail free card!)
Meta: Project Spells (for disguising other criminals in your gang!)

Ok, seems like you like picking the best ones too. Sense Hidden, Vision, Magelock and Disarm are pretty ok for rogues too, but I think Recall and Probability Travel would require "greater magic". Project Spells should only remain in Meta school and the Meta school should be available to rogues.

Potter wrote:
New spells for “Trickery” school:

Copy Cat – Rogues are infamous for their fortes as spies, thieves, assassins, and frauds through misrepresentation and obfuscation of their true intentions. This effect would be the mainstay of roguish ability. It is a variant of the Mimic ability. There are major distinctions which make it something altogether different from Mimicry though. Foremost, the player does not gain any kind of mechanical bonus from shifting forms. This false representation as something he is not is completely an illusion. You don’t get extra attacks, spell casting bonuses, speed, huge HP or SP gains, or any other “stat” changes at all. You only appear different aesthetically (changing your character/color on the screen and your title and class descriptions where they appear in the interface). The potential for this effect’s uses are: 1) fooling other players into thinking you are not a Rogue, 2) fooling monsters into thinking you are not a player (see “Sly Tongue” below). The other distinction from Mimicry is that this effect is only active for a specific duration, forcing the character to shift back to his normal Rogue form after a number of game turns based upon his “Trickery” skill level. This duration can be shortened after the initial casting by effects perpetrated upon the Rogue, such as changes in his state of mind (confusion, sanity, hallucination, etc), or his physical state (receiving large amounts of damage, getting too hungry, etc), as these afflictions weaken his resolve and concentration, causing the illusion to falter.
Monster forms must be learned through contact with them (by minimum number of kills), and player class forms are learned through contact with other player classes (by minimum number of successful p.v.p. thefts from the class). Combined with a minimum level requirement in “Trickery” for forms (as in Mimicry), eventually all of the player and monster classes could (theoretically) be learned.
*projectable*

Ok, this is pretty interesting, tho I don't like the part of fooling other players, nor the idea that you learn player class forms by stealing (could encourage stealing and have a huge impact on the atmosphere...).

Potter wrote:
Street Value – This is a Rogue version of item identification for items in your inventory, basically the equivalent of a black market appraisal. It differs from the standard Identify in that as the spell level increases, the effects progressively get better. I think it should start at level 8 of “Trickery” (the same level as the ID spell in Divination).
Here’s a suggested breakdown of what I have in mind (these are Trickery levels, not spell levels):
Level 8 – one simple pseudo-id function call
Level 11 – two simple pseudo-id function calls
Level 14 – one better pseudo-id function call, one simple pseudo-id function call
Level 17 – one better pseudo-id function call, two simple pseudo-id function calls
Level 20 – two better pseudo-id function calls
Level 23 – one targeted Identify spell, one simple pseudo-id function call
Level 26 – one targeted Identify spell, two simple pseudo-id function calls
Level 29 – one targeted Identify spell, one better pseudo-id function call, one simple pseudo-id function call
Level 32 – one targeted Identify spell, one better pseudo-id function call, two simple pseudo-id function calls
Level 35 – one targeted Identify spell, two better pseudo-id function calls
Level 38 – one targeted *Identify* spell, one simple pseudo-id function call
Level 41 – one targeted *Identify* spell, one better pseudo-id function call
Level 44 – one targeted *Identify* spell, two better pseudo-id function calls
Level 47 – one targeted *Identify* spell, three better pseudo-id function calls
Level 50 – one targeted *Identify* spell, one Identify Everything scroll function call

I think combining *ID* with anything else is a bad thing, because if you don't want to *ID*, just the other effects, you still have to have the item description splashed on the screen. And mixing simple and better pseudo-id functions isn't that smart either, since they can produce different results.

Potter wrote:
Hide in Shadows – Stalking dark alleys and dimly lit halls for prey, Rogues are often found in the squalors of society. This effect would give a temporary boost to the Rogue’s Stealth level for a number of game turns based on his Trickery skill level, and at higher levels would grant temporary invisibility as well. *projectable*

Nice one.

Potter wrote:
Sheep’s Clothing – The Rogue’s ability to fool and manipulate others is highly dependant on his skill of social backstabbing. Appearing as a friend to your enemy is a great asset in the arts of love and war. This spell is where most of the power of the Rogue truly lies. This spell fools monsters into thinking you are one of them, and (at higher levels) other players into thinking you are his or her friend. In game mechanic terms this toggles the friendly flag for monsters for a specific duration, and at higher levels has the potential to make other players un-hostile you (provided the target doesn’t resist the effects).
The spell is a radius effect centered on the player which starts at radius 1 and gradually increases to include all hostiles which can see you by skill level 50.
Many factors should combine into the casting of this spell. Modifiers for success should include the Rogue’s CHR vs. the target’s WIS (or monster level + SMART flag bonus), the Rogue’s vs. the target’s unawareness (see p.v.p. stealing code for example), the players Trickery skill level, the current form of the Rogue (bonus for being the same form as target using Copy Cat), the ability of the monster to perceive and comprehend (mindless monsters should be immune), etc.
SMART monsters are particularly aware of social concerns and should have the discernment to perceive your larcenous attempt and inform other SMARTs about you (SMART implies the ability to communicate), thus when one SMART monster under the effect of Sheep’s Clothing has the effect broken for him, all other SMART monsters in the area (radius determined by monster level) also have the effect broken.
The effects of this spell should end (and friendlies revert back to their formally hostile selves) when one of two things happen:
1) the Rogue attacks a friendly (using Backstabbing bonus if applicable), breaking the effect for the monster and those around him. This is a radius effect which un-friendlies friendly monsters and hastes hostile monsters centered on the monster being attacked, The radius should be fairly large at low Trickery skill levels and gradually reduced to a radius of 0 at skill level 50.)
2) the duration of the effect ends.
Friendly monsters currently would do nothing in particular. When the pet code is implemented they would actually attack other hostiles, doing some of the dirty work for you, this is very Roguish in a social political light, turning one friend against another and fits very well with the theme. It may seem a bit extreme, but this could be done with hostile players as well, making them hostile each other randomly. (Imagine a posse surrounding a bank robber in a gorge in the wild west, all of them with their guns ablazing. Now imagine the silly thief in the middle bouncing about so they end up shooting each other! :P )

Looks like this has evolved a bit. Again I don't like the pvp part of this. Monsters vs monsters should be interesting but it would also effect game balance.

Potter wrote:
Sly Tongue – Rogues often get away with perpetrating frauds due to their sharp wit and fast tongue, preying on the empathies of others and convincing persons that what would do them harm would instead be beneficial. This spell can effect the unawareness of the target and can help in casting Sheep’s Clothing above. This spell should effect the abilities of it’s target, starting as a single target and working up through a ball effect to a radius centered on the Rogue. The effects are cumulative as the skill level increases:
1) Sleeping monsters wake up. As this is a linguistic effect, you have to be heard to use it.
2) At low levels it confuses monsters with normal chances to resist. “You seem more dissuading.” (as Confuse Monster).
3) At mid levels it scares monsters with normal chances to resist. “You seem more intimidating.” (as Scare Monster).
4) At high levels it temporarily boosts the Rogue’s CHR. “You seem more convincing.”

Doesn't sound very useful. Scared monsters are actually pretty annoying...

Potter wrote:
Having worked as a professional game designer I find the Angband system to be a completely whacked and kludged together hodge-podge of various other gaming systems, it reminds me of good old AD&D in a lot of ways. That being said, this is the best I could come up with within the current framework to make this class distinct from the rest. I hope it gets implemented as it should generate more intense player interactions and might actually stimulate some role-play. Thieves guild anyone? :)

Now that explains everything... Yes, we do lack real role-playing and we could use some. We've recently even tried some custom quests, but they didn't work very well...


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PostPosted: Fri Nov 25, 2005 12:02 am 
mikaelh wrote:
And what's wrong with critical hits using light swords? And Martial Artists learn many special techniques already that do nice damage and can stun or slow down monsters. And rogues are pretty good at trapping but it's not very popular...


Nothing is "wrong" with critical hits using light swords. I just think the ability is more within the scope of Martial Arts. Nothing would prevent a Rogue from learning Martial Arts and using a light weapon.

mikaelh wrote:
Martial Artists can already score critical hits with their bare hands. I think they should just stick to using their bare hands.


Nothing wrong with that, the change isn't about giving more power to the Martial Artist, it's about putting the ability where it goes. Martial Artists do use light weight weapons traditionaly, and I really see no reason why a common theif could use a dagger effectively but someone who has trained in martial arts should not. The limitations of removing Martial Arts boni for using a wielded weapon should stay as well I think though, just because there is less tactile feedback from the victim so he has less information to go by on how to best kill him next.

mikaelh wrote:
Potter wrote:
3) Enable and finish development of the steal from monsters code.

This might be a bit difficult in real time since you'd probably have to fight the monster too.


Yes, it is difficult to steal from someone (or a monster in this case) who is intent on killing you. So you wouldnt want to try while the monster is kicking your ass.

If you look at the effects of these spells they are designed to work together for synergetic effects. For instance, you would first want to befriend the monster with Sheep's Clothing, then confuse him with a potion or Sly Tounge effect, then once he's stumbling around with higher unawareness and not attacking you, throw on your DEX equipment and try to steal from him. The challenge is that you'd have to be fast because the effects wear off in time and he will be pissed as hell at you. I actualy prefer to see more dimention in a game than just hack and slash all the time.


mikaelh wrote:
Well, CHR is kinda a cheap stat... CHR pots don't cost that much and +CHR items are easy to get. I think they could be based on DEX which is more related to rogues.


The reason CHR is a cheap stat is it's currently mostly useless. CHR is supposed to represent your social presence, which is where the spells in this school rely. Just as DEX is important for fine physical manipulation, CHR is important in precise social manipulations, which is what the goal of this school is. If it's too cheap it's very easy to raise the price.

mikaelh wrote:
Ok, seems like you like picking the best ones too. Sense Hidden, Vision, Magelock and Disarm are pretty ok for rogues too, but I think Recall and Probability Travel would require "greater magic". Project Spells should only remain in Meta school and the Meta school should be available to rogues.


Recall is probably least relevent to Rogues, so scrap that. And I do agree that Probability Travel is a little too powerful for the Rogue. Initially I had designed a more harsh version of Probability Travel for the Rogue, but trimmed it back to the standard spell mostly for easier implimentation. The orriginal version I had for this school had the same positive of P.T. but at a much higher failure rate (95% down to 25% at lvl 50), and also had the potential to wake aggrivate monsters in the area any time it was used (with the same probability as spell failure).


mikaelh wrote:
I think combining *ID* with anything else is a bad thing, because if you don't want to *ID*, just the other effects, you still have to have the item description splashed on the screen. And mixing simple and better pseudo-id functions isn't that smart either, since they can produce different results.


From a programming standpoint it's not that difficult, just run the better psuedo's first, then the lesser ones the next turn (or the same turn if you really want). Combining *ID* with psudo-id's is done here to help limit the functionality of the spell as you said. I debated weither or not to even include it in this spell school. An alternative approach, because street values are aproximations of value, would be to just have this spell increase the ability to psuedo-id items to the better pseudo-id and also increase the rate at which psuedo-id's occur for awhile. That way you can pseudo-id faster and without having skills so high to get better. Another idea is to randomly select a target item from your inventory to ID or *ID* instead of letting the user select the target. That would put even greater restraint on it's functionality, as a character would have to drop all his items before casting in order to be sure he *ID*'d the item he wanted.

mikaelh wrote:
Doesn't sound very useful. Scared monsters are actually pretty annoying...


Yeah, not very useful if you are just another hack-n-slash fighter class. But I'm trying to distinguish Rogues from being that. Your playstyle would have to change from "stand next to the monster and quaff heals until it's dead" into something a bit more manipulative and cautious.

Your comments indicate you are still thinking of Rogues in their traditional fighter-class role. What I realy am proposing is a new playstyle. Currently there are "stand at a distance and launch missles at it", and "stand up close and beat it to death". What I am proposing is a new "sneak around, try to confuse your enemies, take what you can, and run away" playstyle.

Variety is the spice of life, lets add some.

-Potter


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