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How many magic schools?
Poll ended at Tue May 04, 2004 4:08 pm
Leave it as it is 60%  60%  [ 9 ]
Add more schools!! 7%  7%  [ 1 ]
Reduce it completely (3 or 4) 0%  0%  [ 0 ]
Reduce it quite a bit (5 or 6) 27%  27%  [ 4 ]
Reduce it slightly (7 or 8) 7%  7%  [ 1 ]
Total votes : 15
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PostPosted: Tue Apr 20, 2004 4:08 pm 
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Uruivellas

Joined: Tue Jan 27, 2004 3:10 pm
Posts: 743
Location: UK
I realise this is probably a very contraversial idea,but...

The way I see it, there are too many different schools already.
The more spell schools there are, the more you have to spread skill points to get the few useful spells (and these differ per character). This means that over all you do not get that many spells, and those you do get are powerful.
Personally I would prefer to see a smaller number of schools, with high rewards for investing the skill points (not just the "I'll invest 5 here to get this spell, and twelve here to get this" attitude), and so it was worthwhile pursuing a school to get the highest levels for each spell.
Add any more spell schools and the current situation would get worse. Just remember the good old days with the good spells, the evil spells and the priestly prayers. I would like to see a return to that kind of system. Not necessarily a reduction to that extent, but at least to only around 7 schools.

Of course it's unlikely my suggestion will be implemented, but it was an IDEA, and I like it.


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PostPosted: Tue Apr 20, 2004 4:21 pm 
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Sher'Tul

Joined: Mon Mar 29, 2004 8:24 pm
Posts: 1004
Location: LOST
This would probably be hard, if not impossible to implement, maybe better suited for a module.

1. group all geomancy powers into "elemental" this might include some nature spells as well.
2. group physical altering spells into "transmutation" this might include some healing spells as you are changing "wounds" into normal.
3. group all spells that would help you to recover, destroy life into "necromancy" as these spells tend to alter life force.
4. group all spells that focus on protection into an "abjuration" group, these might include protect from evil scrolls becoming spells accessable, and some charm spells the idea being that if you can make them your friend they will not "theoretically" harm you.
5. group all god spells into one and change the prayer skill and piety.
6. keep divination the way it is.
7. change the mana skill into a destructive group where the powers are focused on damaging and call the group "destruction".
8. any other spell type that doesn't belong anywhere create an "all" group and place them there.

these are again just ideas, and they would probably be better suited for a mod and not for a full game, but hey my 2 cents.

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PostPosted: Tue Apr 20, 2004 4:42 pm 
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Sher'Tul

Joined: Mon Jul 07, 2003 7:30 pm
Posts: 1106
Location: Nargothrond
Above post looks *terribly* similar to DnD school system :evil:


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PostPosted: Tue Apr 20, 2004 4:54 pm 
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Sher'Tul Godslayer

Joined: Sat Dec 14, 2002 7:18 pm
Posts: 2438
Location: California (or sometimes Erebor)
Now this is tilting at windmills: to call for huge changes in the part of the game that the maintainer is most proud of.

Make a module. This has no chance of happening.


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PostPosted: Tue Apr 20, 2004 6:09 pm 
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Sher'Tul

Joined: Mon Jul 07, 2003 5:22 pm
Posts: 1461
Location: Finland
I like the current magic schools. I think there is no need to change them. Potential places for changes could be: increasing the learning modifiers for various classes, giving more skill points (like Annals of Ea which gives 6 per level - love it), and allowing leveling beyond level 50 (like No Limits).

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PostPosted: Tue Apr 20, 2004 6:10 pm 
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Sher'Tul

Joined: Mon Mar 29, 2004 8:24 pm
Posts: 1004
Location: LOST
zasvid wrote:
Above post looks *terribly* similar to DnD school system :evil:


is this evil?

still it is just an idea, just my input.
Neil wrote:
Now this is tilting at windmills: to call for huge changes in the part of the game that the maintainer is most proud of.



I honestly meant no offense to DG by what was posted, it is a very brilliant thing, took many hours of work, I am sure, on DG's part! then again, welcome to the ideas forum. :)
(this is where opions get thrown around :D )

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PostPosted: Tue Apr 20, 2004 6:13 pm 
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Sher'Tul Godslayer

Joined: Tue Jun 10, 2003 1:50 pm
Posts: 3427
Location: Virginia, USA
I like it the way it is. I could see a little tweaking to reflect changes within a class (such as darkgod's interest in reworking Geomancers) but that's all. Reducing the number of schools to make the game easier is counterproductive. ToME was never meant to be easy, and distributing skill points is one of the most difficult aspects of it.


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PostPosted: Tue Apr 20, 2004 7:29 pm 
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Sher'Tul Godslayer

Joined: Sat Dec 14, 2002 7:18 pm
Posts: 2438
Location: California (or sometimes Erebor)
I'm sure nobody took offense at the suggestion. I'm just saying that certain ToME developers are very happy with the way the schools are now, so those who are unhappy should write a module.


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PostPosted: Tue Apr 20, 2004 8:05 pm 
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Sher'Tul

Joined: Mon Mar 29, 2004 8:24 pm
Posts: 1004
Location: LOST
quick question, could somebody estimate how long it would take to create a module?

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PostPosted: Tue Apr 20, 2004 8:20 pm 
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Sher'Tul

Joined: Mon Jul 07, 2003 7:30 pm
Posts: 1106
Location: Nargothrond
that depends on how much you want to modify the game and how eager and skilled you are to do it. To rearrange school spells I'd say it would take few hours.


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PostPosted: Tue Apr 20, 2004 8:23 pm 
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Master of Eyal

Joined: Wed Jul 24, 2002 9:26 pm
Posts: 10230
Location: Angolwen
Just to reorganize the spells schools ?
I'd say a few hours for me(not counting balancing it) but I dont exactly have time ;)
I guess people that know the engine less well would take longer but not that long, it's not hard

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PostPosted: Tue Apr 20, 2004 8:28 pm 
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Uruivellas

Joined: Sun Jul 06, 2003 10:04 pm
Posts: 924
Location: A mountain range east of Bree
NO. No, no, no. Again, no.

Magic schools are single most unique aspect of ToME, and also, IMHO, the coolest. Thanks to them, you can have a mage who specializes in fire magic at the cost of not having good healing spells, or a priest who dabbles in earth or water magic. You can customize characters far more than in other variants.

The magic schools system is good as it is. Add more shools, and you not only run the risk of turning the magic system into something big and clunky, but make the game much harder (since you have to spread out skill points even more); reduce the number, and, as well as possibly making the game annoyingly easy, you make it harder to customize magic-using characters. Suppose that Temporal and Conveyance got lumped together? Then any high-level char with Essence of Speed could also be able to teleport. Earth and Nature? Anyone who could cause an earthquake would also be able to heal themselves whenever they wanted.

What about splitting schools? Suppose that Divination were split into Identification and Detection schools: to be able to both identify items and detect traps and monsters, you'd have to invest in two schools, wasting precious skill points!

Adding new schools? That could work, but it would depend on what was in the new school, and adjustments to skill-learning efficiency might have to be made. Take, for example, and "item branding" school. Should it be lumped under Meta? Should skills in other schools be required for certain brands? Should item branding be an ability? (That is, do we need multiple spells for something that could use a single spell?) Or should the school not be added, its function left to Alchemy? (Remember, there will be a new alchemy system at some point.)

Basically, what I'm saying is that the school system not only works "well enough", it works exceptionally well. Messing around with it could prove not only useless, but problematic. It works; unless you know damn well what you're doing, leave it alone.

Edit: Whoops. Less than a minute after posting this, i realized I was too late. D'oh! :P

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PostPosted: Tue Apr 20, 2004 8:37 pm 
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Archmage

Joined: Tue Jul 15, 2003 1:39 am
Posts: 414
To summerize Tachyon, the current schools are balanced so the standard mage will need so many skill points to get a good amount of spells. To combine schools will make the game easier for mages; to separate schools will make the game harder.

Of course, you still can change the schools, but in order to keep some balance, you would need to make another aspect of the game harder for mages, but no other classes. For example, if there were less classes, you could compensate by giving mages a worse mod on the schools. This would have other effects, (warriors who get schools from FF could be better than they were) but would remain somewhat balanced.


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PostPosted: Tue Apr 20, 2004 11:15 pm 
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Sher'Tul

Joined: Mon Mar 29, 2004 8:24 pm
Posts: 1004
Location: LOST
hey, don't get so worked up tachyon, keep your 8)
if I actually did do this, I would first of all probably be very selfish with it until I knew that it worked, it could be a mod. DG is just giving estimates of time, I was not asking anyone to change anything at this point, I agree that it works amazingly except with a normal mage, but I suppose one could just focus on the basics! :P

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PostPosted: Tue Apr 20, 2004 11:43 pm 
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Uruivellas

Joined: Sun Jul 06, 2003 10:04 pm
Posts: 924
Location: A mountain range east of Bree
I've never had any problems with a normal mage.

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