ToME: the Tales of Maj'Eyal

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Should there be more weapons for non-swordmasters?
Yes! 72%  72%  [ 21 ]
No! 10%  10%  [ 3 ]
I'm perfectly happy with the way it is! 17%  17%  [ 5 ]
Total votes : 29
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PostPosted: Mon Apr 12, 2004 7:40 am 
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Sher'Tul Godslayer

Joined: Sat Dec 14, 2002 7:18 pm
Posts: 2438
Location: California (or sometimes Erebor)
"imbalance?"

I swear, the way it's used here, "balance" means "the way I like it."

So, using that definition, I guarantee my module will be both balanced and unbalanced.

There's also zero chance that all weapon types in Arda will be equal in utility.


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PostPosted: Mon Apr 12, 2004 9:41 am 
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Sher'Tul

Joined: Mon Jul 07, 2003 7:30 pm
Posts: 1106
Location: Nargothrond
alternative solution to the issue - reduce number of swords or split them into swords and daggers (you know, you don't swing your sword in the way you use your dagger) - that way it would be harder to say that there are too many swords compared to other weapon types.


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PostPosted: Mon Apr 12, 2004 11:53 am 
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Sher'Tul Godslayer

Joined: Sat Dec 14, 2002 7:18 pm
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Location: California (or sometimes Erebor)
For my plans, see http://www.t-o-m-e.net/forum/viewtopic.php?t=4114


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PostPosted: Mon Apr 12, 2004 1:08 pm 
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Sher'Tul

Joined: Mon Jul 07, 2003 7:30 pm
Posts: 1106
Location: Nargothrond
Hoom... I missed a few interesting discussions here... otoh these plans sound very good. Can't wait for the Arda!


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PostPosted: Mon Apr 12, 2004 5:11 pm 
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Keeper

Joined: Tue Aug 12, 2003 3:08 pm
Posts: 1537
Location: The edge of the Abyss
I think everyone's missing the point in this thread...

I'm not to make Axemaster easier. The only thing I'm saying is that I'd like to see more sentient artifacts that aren't swords. I do realize that Swordmasters are the easiest warrior to swing, but there should be more weapons for users to choose from/

_________________
And it was such a good idea...


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PostPosted: Mon Apr 12, 2004 8:48 pm 
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Archmage

Joined: Mon Feb 23, 2004 5:11 pm
Posts: 406
Location: the sticks
I like the idea of splitting out two handed swords from lighter swords, but I LOVE the idea of beefing up the two handed weapons to make them worthwhile. Seriously, when was the last time anyone used a two handed sword? The reason is that while they, at present, have more and better dice and critical hits, its not enough to make up for the fewer attacks and loss of shield. I'd love for the Zweihander of World Destruction to actually be more destructive than the Dagger of Mild Pleasantness.

As an added bonus, splitting swordmasters into those two groups actually gets us to an offense vs defense character theme decision. I have to disagree with Neil's comment that Warriors are not defensive characters. I mean, they're offensive in the fact that characters have to be capable of massive offensive to have any chance of survival, but of the three major groups (mages, warriors, loremasters) mages are the offense, loremasters are the defense, and warriors are in the middle. Splitting swordmastery means you basically have a shield using group (and is therefore defensive) and a 2-handed weapon group (which is obviously offensive). I think that would be great.

Finally, I don't think it would be a good idea to give axe-masters a sentient axe. Why? Because then the sole point of every axe-mastery will be to get the sentient axe. Sure, there aren't a lot of axe master dumps right now, but they tend to wield a variety of weapons. Every hafted master, on the other hand, is either working towards Grond or already has it. Sword masters don't have that problem because they have so many different weapons (even if they are split) and polearm masters aren't a problem because no one plays them.


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PostPosted: Mon Apr 12, 2004 8:52 pm 
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Higher

Joined: Thu Oct 31, 2002 6:31 am
Posts: 57
Location: Seattle, WA
I play polearmmasters. I don't mind that there's not as much for us, I like the challenge (not that I've ever won the game anyway).


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PostPosted: Mon Apr 12, 2004 8:56 pm 
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Sher'Tul Godslayer

Joined: Sat Dec 14, 2002 7:18 pm
Posts: 2438
Location: California (or sometimes Erebor)
I, too, play polearmmasters and have never had any trouble finding weapons.

As for defense: Sure, a blade-wielder might be somewhat defensive-minded in combat, using a light weapon and probably a shield, but the rest of the guys are relying on their armor and massive HP totals to keep them alive.


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PostPosted: Mon Apr 12, 2004 9:33 pm 
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Archmage

Joined: Mon Feb 23, 2004 5:11 pm
Posts: 406
Location: the sticks
Sorry, that was meant in jest. I knew I should have put in a smiley.

I know people play Polearm masters, and just because a class doesn't have as many dumps in the rankings doesn't make it isn't any less fun (there are barely more warpers than polearm masters and I've got two of them). I was just poking fun at the fact that people always complain about Axe masters, yet there are actually more dumps than there are for Polearm masters.


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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Tue Apr 13, 2004 1:44 am 
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Archmage

Joined: Thu Dec 05, 2002 5:07 am
Posts: 427
Location: In Mirkwood, spider hunting
Neil wrote:
"imbalance?"

I swear, the way it's used here, "balance" means "the way I like it."


Please note the tongue firmly pressed into the cheek!

I'm aware that everyone has different tastes in weapons, which are driven by the individuals personal ideas about theme.

Neil wrote:
There's also zero chance that all weapon types in Arda will be equal in utility.


Which was kind of the point I was asking for clarification on. I'm just interested to know if weights and damages would be recalculated, or whether the old Ang/Zang definitions were still going to be used as the base.

And "equal" is perhaps overstating the case of your opponents here. However, that's a flamewar of a different frequency...

:)


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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Tue Apr 13, 2004 2:05 am 
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Sher'Tul Godslayer

Joined: Sat Dec 14, 2002 7:18 pm
Posts: 2438
Location: California (or sometimes Erebor)
No, I'm not overstating anything at all. Look at the poll here: the comparison with swordmasters is made. :-)

As for weights and dice, the items list of Arda is being written from scratch. Nothing will be carried over from ToME/ZAngband/Angband/Moria.


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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Tue Apr 13, 2004 2:41 am 
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Archmage

Joined: Thu Dec 05, 2002 5:07 am
Posts: 427
Location: In Mirkwood, spider hunting
No, I think what they're obviously crying out for are MORE inferior... er... correctly balanced weapons for non-swordmasters...

Think of it!

"The Beaked Axe of Almost-As-Good-As-Anguirrel!"
"The Pike of Could-Maybe-Be-Mistaken-For-Glamdring-In-A-Bad-Light"
"The Mace 'Not-Quite-Ringil-But-Be-Grateful-For-What-You've-Got'"


See... together we can make it work...

:)


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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Wed Apr 14, 2004 7:12 am 
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Wyrmic

Joined: Fri Oct 31, 2003 9:08 am
Posts: 252
Location: Finland
I am against more sentient weapons. Even now, priests, archers and loremasters spend too much time leveling up the sentient weapons to see what they would get. A sentient axe could make axemasters more interesting, but many other classes would become more boring.
Elliott wrote:
Splitting swordmastery means you basically have a shield using group (and is therefore defensive) and a 2-handed weapon group (which is obviously offensive).

I have to disagree on this. IMO all armor is for resistances, immunities, ESP, bonuses, reflection etc. High AC is an unimportant side-effect. For example, given the choice between Rings of Protection and Searching, almost everyone selects the latter. Two-handed weapon means less resistances and therefore more careful gameplay.


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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Wed Apr 14, 2004 8:49 am 
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Sher'Tul Godslayer

Joined: Sat Dec 14, 2002 7:18 pm
Posts: 2438
Location: California (or sometimes Erebor)
People who ignore armor class are only hindering their own play, especially warriors and their ability to score critical hits.


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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Wed Apr 14, 2004 12:45 pm 
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Higher

Joined: Thu May 15, 2003 8:51 am
Posts: 58
Location: Germany
Sentient weapons are fun, so from my point of view there could be only more of it :) On the other hand most of the time they become useless because they get some bad flag like chaos effects and earthquake. But maybe I just have bad luck.
When it comes to sword masters compared to other masters I don't care much about their handicaps. Even more the handicap is the reason why I play them. I mean if I play an axe master even if I would find Ringil at the first level I would not use it because it is not part of my choosen challenge at that moment. So the only way to make me angry about earthquake flags as an axe master is to include some sentinent axes :)


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