ToME: the Tales of Maj'Eyal

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Have you ever tried the bard class?
Poll ended at Fri Oct 24, 2003 11:08 am
Yes 44%  44%  [ 8 ]
No 39%  39%  [ 7 ]
Ever tried what? 17%  17%  [ 3 ]
Total votes : 18
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PostPosted: Fri Oct 17, 2003 11:08 am 
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Uruivellas

Joined: Mon Jan 06, 2003 7:09 pm
Posts: 759
Location: London, UK
Probably the biggest problem with the bards now is that it's very hard to get a useful instrument for the mid levels.
So I suggest two changes:

insert "T:100:14:256" into st_info.txt at lines 586 and 563
This way instruments would be available in libraries and forbidden libraries in dungeon markets. (With the logic of demon items)

insert the following lines
I:10:& Drum~
I:10:& Harp~
I:10:& Horn~
after line 45
This way there will be a small probability of instruments in General shops.

Note: Prices probably will require some balance.

Question:
What do developers say about this?
Will there be any change in 3.0.0 with bards?

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PostPosted: Fri Oct 17, 2003 2:10 pm 
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Uruivellas

Joined: Thu Jul 25, 2002 8:07 am
Posts: 656
Location: Leafy East Surrey, UK
Vagabond wrote:
instruments would be available in libraries and forbidden libraries in dungeon markets.

This sounds good. Not so sure about having them in the general store.

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PostPosted: Fri Oct 17, 2003 11:21 pm 
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Uruivellas

Joined: Sat Jan 25, 2003 8:25 am
Posts: 757
Location: in The Void, alone
Would it also be possible to increase the possible pval range for instruments? A lot of Bard songs are at levels 4 and 5, and only a very few instruments can handle that level.

I think I might have found a Harp of Power (+4) somewhere deep in Angband, but that was only once... and +5 is unheard of.

I also think Bards are weak. Really, really weak. Maybe I'll run one soon and see if I can get anywhere... :wink:

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PostPosted: Fri Oct 17, 2003 11:28 pm 
What really annoys me is that the artifact instruments are all unable to cope with all the bard songs. So the Horn of Rohan is more useful to a melee warrior than a bard...


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PostPosted: Sat Oct 18, 2003 6:50 am 
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Uruivellas

Joined: Mon Jan 06, 2003 7:09 pm
Posts: 759
Location: London, UK
I don't think they are weak. First 49 levels are a bit hard, but I guess it will be easy on 50. Or not. :)
AFAIK the last songs are on the IV. instrument level, so it's not needed to get an instrument with +5. Anyway, it is hard to get even one with +3, not mentioning that different kinds of instruments have very different profiles.
To tell the truth, bards are somewhat weak yet. The greatest of all flaws is that they don't get the mana needed for their songs. One of their merits is symbiosis, although they get it only with .4.

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PostPosted: Sun Oct 19, 2003 10:55 pm 
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Archmage

Joined: Thu Dec 05, 2002 5:07 am
Posts: 427
Location: In Mirkwood, spider hunting
Bards suck mightily...

They need more offensive spells (Come back Alkahabeth (sp?), all is forgiven...) and the existing spells need to become more mana-efficient to the benefits gained... especially since the different spells need different instruments to be swapped (in the middle of a battle!) in order to work...

The "quality of instruments" requirement is a lovely effect, but needs a commensurate benefit to the harper to make it worthwhile...

(Hmmm... howabout a Mana bonus (for Bards only) based on pval*10...? An [IV] level instrument would give a 40% bonus? )

</rant>


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PostPosted: Mon Oct 20, 2003 3:16 am 
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Sher'Tul Godslayer

Joined: Tue Jun 10, 2003 1:50 pm
Posts: 3427
Location: Virginia, USA
I haven't tried the bard class yet, but it seems to me that the fact that the assorted harps, horns, etc, can't even be *sold* (much less bought) anywhere.... except for the Black Market at a pittance... seems to say they are not a serious class.

Same thing with trap sets, though the general opinon (??? that I've read so far) seems to be that trap sets are worthless. I guess this tends to make me class other unsellable items (i.e. bard items) as also being worthless. I realize this is not a logical conclusion, but there you are: it's the main reason I haven't bothered trying the bard class. If you want it to be used and valued, then make it valued in the game.

Just my $0.02.


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PostPosted: Mon Oct 20, 2003 3:18 am 
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Sher'Tul Godslayer

Joined: Sat Dec 14, 2002 7:18 pm
Posts: 2438
Location: California (or sometimes Erebor)
Take it as a sign that no developer has paid much attention to the skill.


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PostPosted: Mon Oct 20, 2003 4:40 am 
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Sher'Tul Godslayer

Joined: Tue Jun 10, 2003 1:50 pm
Posts: 3427
Location: Virginia, USA
Neil wrote:
Take it as a sign that no developer has paid much attention to the skill.


Actually, I took it as a sign that after Anne had a fit, the developers dropped the Harpers like a hot rock and did nothing much further with it. (And probably none of you may remember, but I was one of the ones who warned y'all about doing a Pern-based *band, though that was ages ago and under a different user name.)


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PostPosted: Mon Oct 20, 2003 5:39 am 
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Sher'Tul Godslayer

Joined: Sat Dec 14, 2002 7:18 pm
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Location: California (or sometimes Erebor)
Music plays a big part in Middle-earth, though. Legal pressure had no impact.


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PostPosted: Mon Oct 20, 2003 5:52 am 
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Sher'Tul Godslayer

Joined: Tue Jun 10, 2003 1:50 pm
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Location: Virginia, USA
Works for me...


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PostPosted: Mon Oct 20, 2003 5:55 am 
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Sher'Tul Godslayer

Joined: Sat Dec 14, 2002 7:18 pm
Posts: 2438
Location: California (or sometimes Erebor)
Basically, anything in ToME that's broken is likely something not used by the illustrious maintainer or another active developer like me. When a bug made rods rare, it got fixed. When a bug made books rare, the minas anor quest appeared, and that bug did get nailed.

Yet runecraft sat broken for ages, bards aren't very useful right now, and piety is rather hard for Yavanna followers to get. :-)


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PostPosted: Tue Oct 21, 2003 8:02 am 
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Higher

Joined: Thu May 15, 2003 8:51 am
Posts: 58
Location: Germany
I once tried a Bard. My impression was he is more powerfull when using a range weapon instead of an instrument in the D-slot. But maybe I only used the wrong tactic.
In the old ToME the Bard had an cheap range attack in the first book. This is something I miss.

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PostPosted: Tue Oct 21, 2003 10:56 am 
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Uruivellas

Joined: Mon Jan 06, 2003 7:09 pm
Posts: 759
Location: London, UK
The abovementioned is a real problem, because
- Bards can't use ranged weapons
- They don't have a spell to cause real ranged attack. Blow is not good for this, because it is centered on the player and the damage is small.

So they should depend on sticks, or use a ranged weapon instead of an instrument.

An idea: What about an ability to fire sound bolts with instruments? It could be like the flash attack of the rohanknights, only dependent on skill.

[Note: I can even write the code, if the developors say ok.]

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PostPosted: Tue Oct 21, 2003 6:55 pm 
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Sher'Tul Godslayer

Joined: Tue Jun 10, 2003 1:50 pm
Posts: 3427
Location: Virginia, USA
Vagabond wrote:
An idea: What about an ability to fire sound bolts with instruments? It could be like the flash attack of the rohanknights, only dependent on skill.


Here's a ranged attack Bard weapon for ya:

The Bagpipe of Cacaphony [+5]

All monsters who fail save of
A .... die
B ..... take X damage (X based on Bard skill, char level and monster level)
C .... are paralyzed for X turns
D .... run screaming (e.g. Scare)
E .... take a save vs. stun or scare
F .... no effect
G .... tell you you'll never win a Grammy (or whatever that music award is) and come after you with murder in their eyes (e.g. Aggravate Monster) If they manage to kill you, the last thing you see is them jumping up and down on the bagpipe....


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