ToME: the Tales of Maj'Eyal

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PostPosted: Mon May 24, 2010 3:28 pm 
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Uruivellas

Joined: Tue Dec 13, 2005 12:35 am
Posts: 704
I've been experimenting with Unbelievers lately and finding them awesome. Not having to worry about swarms of spellcasters is just great.

(And yeah, I'm using the Unbeliever class despite the skill disadvantages, instead of an antimagic Swordmaster. Starting with a Dark Sword makes things a lot easier.)

Some things I've noticed...

- Detect Traps is more useful than I originally thought, at least with Ironman Rooms, since it gives you a decent idea of the dungeon layout when there are a lot of vaults.

- Teleport block = awesome, makes the game much less annoying.

- Rushing towards spellcasters to get them in your AM field is... interesting.

- Pumping Weaponmastery seems to be more efficient in the early game than starting with Swordmastery, in terms of damage output.

However there are some things that still confound me.

1. How do you deal with groups of breathers? AM doesn't seem to impact breath attacks, even magical ones, so hounds and whatnot can breath on you while you close on them. I'm guessing archery might be the way to deal with these critters?

('twould be cool if AM did work on them though. Messages about dragons failing to breath just would be great. Alas, it would be more than a bit unbalanced, I think.)

2. Likewise... Nazgul. Archery, I guess? Seems awfully slow. And I wouldn't want Mormegil or such to get destroyed.

3. Finally, how much does the dark sword matter? It seems that my AM field is roughly halved in strength when not using a dark sword. Is this correct?

Finally... Character combos. What's the easiest Unbeliever combo? The most interesting, in your opinion? I was recently having good luck with a Wood-Elf Zombie Unbeliever, but Wood-Elves don't really have a lot of advantages, and the low HP sucks even as a Zombie.

- Ent? I kind of like this idea, because Ents get innate ESP_EVIL, which should really improve survivability. Though the low speed would make things... interesting, I think.

- Gnome Zombie actually looks interesting. Innate FA = good, same with the Blink power.

- How about dwarves? I don't play dwarves much, for some reason I've never had very good luck with them. The find doors and traps thing is redundant with AM. On the other hand Find Secret Passages is good, and the Petty-Dwarves' rDisenchantment is very good. (Or maybe not for an Unbeliever? Not sure.) The magic device skill is useless obviously. On the other hand the good saving throws may be very beneficial for when AM fails.

- Thunderlord? Haven't played them much, they look overpowered at the expense of a very annoying EXP penalty. Also the idea of riding an eagle through a dungeon just strikes me as cheesy. :P

- Beorning? Does their shapeshifting work with AM? If it does it could be very powerful, Bearform is *good* at high levels. Only problem is that you can't wield a digger when you're a bear, even though you can wield a sword, a shield, and a lamp (don't ask).

- High Elf Zombie? Both rLight and rDark plus the other Zombie resists and good stats, but I'm not really seeing any other advantages.

Any advice?


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PostPosted: Mon May 24, 2010 11:04 pm 
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Reaper

Joined: Sun Jan 26, 2003 11:49 pm
Posts: 1715
Location: West Virginia
I have always played swordmasters with antimagic rather than unbelievers. I go with the standard zombie Rohan Knight if I want a cheesy win. The only difference between these and an unbeliever is that I can hold off on pumping antimagic until I am high enough level to get detect traps (but I usually don't bother).

Since you don't have to worry about temple quests, level up to 30 or so in the mountains before hitting the dungeons.

I look for a sword of westernesse for Nazgul killing. If that doesn't show up I waste an artifact or ego weapon or run away. There is no advantage to offing all the Nazgul if Morgy can't summon.

Breathers are no more trouble for an unbeliever than any other slash and hack character. Don't take on mobs in the open and always be prepared to teleport (remember that it takes TWO turns if you have teleport control on).

I don't worry too much about the dark sword most of the time. I carry one, but if I have Haradekket or something better I will wield that most of the time. If I am trying to clean out a druj quest then I switch to the DS.

Antimagic doesn't really come into its own until you have it at a very high level. When you get it up to level 50 you can pretty much wander through the dungeon and ignore summoners, magic users, and teleporters. If you have your combat stats high and a reasonable weapon, nothing is going to give you much trouble.

I think that you can use any abilities accessed with the u menu but not any of the ones accessed through the m menu. The one exception is alchemy, which is compatible with antimagic. That is an interesting combination- of course you have to start with an alchemist and add antimagic with FF's help. It takes a while, but then you end up with a double helping of cheese.


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PostPosted: Tue May 25, 2010 5:00 pm 
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Uruivellas

Joined: Tue Dec 13, 2005 12:35 am
Posts: 704
Yottle wrote:
I have always played swordmasters with antimagic rather than unbelievers. I go with the standard zombie Rohan Knight if I want a cheesy win. The only difference between these and an unbeliever is that I can hold off on pumping antimagic until I am high enough level to get detect traps (but I usually don't bother).

Since you don't have to worry about temple quests, level up to 30 or so in the mountains before hitting the dungeons.


I generally level up to ~20 and then go to SLoM.

Quote:
I look for a sword of westernesse for Nazgul killing. If that doesn't show up I waste an artifact or ego weapon or run away. There is no advantage to offing all the Nazgul if Morgy can't summon.


Good point...

Quote:
Breathers are no more trouble for an unbeliever than any other slash and hack character. Don't take on mobs in the open and always be prepared to teleport (remember that it takes TWO turns if you have teleport control on).


Mmm. I'm kind of used to playing priests, who can take on groups of hounds with AoE spells (unless they're in Angband and all crazily leveled). Also, in case you can't tell, I'm not actually a very good player, as I tend more towards brute heroic stupidity than cunning calculation. ;)

Quote:
I don't worry too much about the dark sword most of the time. I carry one, but if I have Haradekket or something better I will wield that most of the time. If I am trying to clean out a druj quest then I switch to the DS.

Antimagic doesn't really come into its own until you have it at a very high level. When you get it up to level 50 you can pretty much wander through the dungeon and ignore summoners, magic users, and teleporters. If you have your combat stats high and a reasonable weapon, nothing is going to give you much trouble.

I think that you can use any abilities accessed with the u menu but not any of the ones accessed through the m menu. The one exception is alchemy, which is compatible with antimagic. That is an interesting combination- of course you have to start with an alchemist and add antimagic with FF's help. It takes a while, but then you end up with a double helping of cheese.


:shock: That definitely sounds like a bug to me. Alchemy is magic and should be blocked by AM.


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PostPosted: Tue May 25, 2010 5:02 pm 
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Spiderkin

Joined: Sat Mar 18, 2006 12:48 pm
Posts: 482
Yottle wrote:
(remember that it takes TWO turns if you have teleport control on).

Actually (and strangely) it doesn't. Switching "Control Continuum" on/off doesn't take any energy -- you may be thinking of the corruption which indeed does take a turn to turn on/off.

Anyway, my favorite Antimagic character hos got to be the posessor who switches to Antimagic after snagging an awesome body. I play Theme almost exclusively and for some reason I always end up snagging Ingeborg's body. The most interesting thing is actually getting to dlvl 120-odd, finding and killing Ingeborg... with no Antimagic and no Magic Device.


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PostPosted: Tue May 25, 2010 7:11 pm 
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Reaper

Joined: Sun Jan 26, 2003 11:49 pm
Posts: 1715
Location: West Virginia
AnonymousHero wrote:
Yottle wrote:
(remember that it takes TWO turns if you have teleport control on).

Actually (and strangely) it doesn't. Switching "Control Continuum" on/off doesn't take any energy -- you may be thinking of the corruption which indeed does take a turn to turn on/off.

Anyway, my favorite Antimagic character hos got to be the posessor who switches to Antimagic after snagging an awesome body. I play Theme almost exclusively and for some reason I always end up snagging Ingeborg's body. The most interesting thing is actually getting to dlvl 120-odd, finding and killing Ingeborg... with no Antimagic and no Magic Device.
I did not remember (or maybe know) that it doesn't take a turn.

However, it almost always takes me two turns, even when I am playing on unbeliever: one to try it and find out that my teleport is blocked, and a second to teleport after toggling. I also have to remember to bring along twice as many tp scrolls as usual, since I use two for each successful teleport.

LE: I don't think that alchemy and antimagic being compatible is a bug. There were posts about it and so presumably DG knew. Alchemy is experimental anyway.


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PostPosted: Tue May 25, 2010 7:53 pm 
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Spiderkin

Joined: Sat Mar 18, 2006 12:48 pm
Posts: 482
True that -- if you don't keep track of your "anti-teleport" state you often do end up wasting a round trying to teleport. You could always train yourself to just always toggle it before trying to teleport. If you toggle to "on" you can always toggle back to "off" with no turns lost. :)

Alchemy + Antimagic: I'm a little torn on this since alchemy isn't strictly a magic *ability* as such. It has to do with mixing certain materials to achieve an effect -- Sure, the effect itself is magical, but mixing a few essences isn't strictly magic. OTOH the combination is absolutely ridiculous from a power level. Essentially infinite HP, ridiculous pluses on all your equipment, ability to create scrolls on the spot (given essences), etc. etc.


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PostPosted: Tue May 25, 2010 11:22 pm 
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Reaper

Joined: Sun Jan 26, 2003 11:49 pm
Posts: 1715
Location: West Virginia
AnonymousHero wrote:
True that -- if you don't keep track of your "anti-teleport" state you often do end up wasting a round trying to teleport. You could always train yourself to just always toggle it before trying to teleport. If you toggle to "on" you can always toggle back to "off" with no turns lost. :)

Alchemy + Antimagic: I'm a little torn on this since alchemy isn't strictly a magic *ability* as such. It has to do with mixing certain materials to achieve an effect -- Sure, the effect itself is magical, but mixing a few essences isn't strictly magic. OTOH the combination is absolutely ridiculous from a power level. Essentially infinite HP, ridiculous pluses on all your equipment, ability to create scrolls on the spot (given essences), etc. etc.
My memory (http://angband.oook.cz/ladder-show.php?id=6943) was that by the time I had gotten three antimagic quest rewards my alchemist was so powerful that antimagic was irrelevant.

The problem with the alchemist class is that there are some interesting variations on game play, but they all end up with an uber-character who can kill Morgy in a couple of turns.


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